What do you believe is required for Salvation?

[Thinkingstuff]

The argument that every person has been given a chance is completely ridiculous and is easily disproven. There have been plenty of people in history since Jesus ascended into heaven and the Holy Ghost descended on the apostles at Pentecost that have never heard the gospel.

to play the devil's advocate then. What does this say about God? That he arbitarily chooses those who would be saved. It must be arbitarily because it is clear that 1) there is no merit within us to deserve salvation 2) God does not play favorites. Scripture alludes to both these points. If God choses those he knows will recieve the message then based on his foreknowledge God has chosen someone by their merit of willingness. However, God does not grant that kind of favor. Therefore God's choice is arbitrary. And if Arbitrary then ultimately salvation isn't dependent upon God's soveriegnty but the luck of the draw thus Chance is greater than God.

 

[RAdam]

So to summerize your pov

"God selected me so I'm good to go. Now as to the rest of you, you better start wearing asbestos clothing."

Or "God didn't love the entire world when the gospel said he did but it means God only loves certain special people in the world. In fact he hates the rest and can care less what they wants so he just tosses them into the fire. Personally, I don't have to worry because I'm one of the elite that God chose to love. So I can profess my faith live like the devil and have nothing to worry about because God chose me over you which makes me better than you." Yep logic rocks.

I wonder how witnessing works? " Now I don't know if God chose to love you or not. However, if he did choose to love you; you must chose him because he only died for a special group of people of whom you may or may not be one. If you actually believe in him its probably a good bet your one of the chosen few whom God only loves but not necissarily so. Also if you don't believe well, your going to get burned anyway so you haven't lost anything. Peace!"

What a bunch of nonsense. It's par for the course with you. After all, if you cannot deal with an argument it is much better to erect a straw man and tear it apart.

God has people all over this globe, and neither you and I know them all. I wasn't worthy of being chosen, noone was. That's why it is called grace. If I did something, fulfilled some condition, it is not longer grace. God chose me despite myself. Sort of excludes boasting, doesn't it? Now, I cannot boast that I've been saved by God because it is all of Him. What about you? You have told me in times past that the reason you are saved is because you availed yourself of salvation. In other words, you believe the reason you are saved is because of you. I believe the reason I'm saved is because of Him.

How does preaching work? I try to emulate the apostles. They simply preached Christ and Him crucified and God's people believed the message. In fact, the bible told us exactly who it was that believed: as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Apparently, the believers were people God had ordained to eternal life. Uh oh. There's that unfair election doctrine again.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What a bunch of nonsense. It's par for the course with you. After all, if you cannot deal with an argument it is much better to erect a straw man and tear it apart.

God has people all over this globe, and neither you and I know them all. I wasn't worthy of being chosen, noone was. That's why it is called grace. If I did something, fulfilled some condition, it is not longer grace. God chose me despite myself. Sort of excludes boasting, doesn't it? Now, I cannot boast that I've been saved by God because it is all of Him. What about you? You have told me in times past that the reason you are saved is because you availed yourself of salvation. In other words, you believe the reason you are saved is because of you. I believe the reason I'm saved is because of Him.

How does preaching work? I try to emulate the apostles. They simply preached Christ and Him crucified and God's people believed the message. In fact, the bible told us exactly who it was that believed: as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Apparently, the believers were people God had ordained to eternal life. Uh oh. There's that unfair election doctrine again.

true I was teasing you but I bring up an actual point prior to this post. But the idea is the same. Though the first admittedly is humorous.

 

[RAdam]

to play the devil's advocate then. What does this say about God? That he arbitarily chooses those who would be saved. It must be arbitarily because it is clear that 1) there is no merit within us to deserve salvation 2) God does not play favorites. Scripture alludes to both these points. If God choses those he knows will recieve the message then based on his foreknowledge God has chosen someone by their merit of willingness. However, God does not grant that kind of favor. Therefore God's choice is arbitrary. And if Arbitrary then ultimately salvation isn't dependent upon God's soveriegnty but the luck of the draw thus Chance is greater than God.

Why must it be arbitrary? Because you say so? God has never been arbitrary. The bible clearly stated that God chose His people before the foundation of the world and that His choice of them was not based on any merit found in them but rather according to His own will. Why did God choose those He elected? I don't know. But to assume it is arbitrary because you don't like the doctrine is just plain wrong.

Secondly, you said God doesn't play favorites. I would like to know where that is located in the bible. I know the bible says that God is no respecter of persons, but that does not imply that God treats every individual the same. In fact, the entire bible disputes the idea that God treats everyone the same. When the bible says God is no respecter of persons the meaning clearly is that God doesn't care about the differences we place between one another like skin color. In fact, that's exactly the way Peter applied the idea in Acts 10. God has never treated everyone in the same fashion. Of all of the people in Ur of the Chaldees, God called Abraham and brought him into a blessed fellowship with Himself. God made promises to him He made to no other man at that time. God favored Jacob rather than Esau, and that choice was not based on the actions of either man but on God's sovereign will. God gave His bible and worship service to only the Jewish people in the OT days, excluding the Gentiles from this blessing. God blessed Paul to do things He blessed no other man, even the other apostles, to do. The idea that God acts towards every man in the same manner is just plain wrong and the entire bible disputes that.

 

[webdog]

What was Jesus lamented over? The fact that they would be destroyed in 40 years. Jesus never said He willed for them to be saved from hell. He didn't even have hell under consideration.

Here is what you said: "So God is not willing for anyone to perish, but yet some will perish. God's will must not be very strong."

Regardless if it was physical or spiritual, God's "will" was thwarted. Does that mean Jesus is weak? In His own words He said He willed something, but they would not have it.

 

[glfredrick]

It does not get much clearer than this:


Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.



At the end of the day, I believe that a lot of otherwise well-meaning and devoted Christians have the same sin as Adan and Eve in the garden. They choose to exercise their wills above the direct command of God, with, sadly, the same result. Have we not learned yet that God is God and nothing less, and we humans are human and nothing more? Our King says to come and bow, and so we do... By His bidding, not through any merit of our own!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Gil...LOL....that was my assertion 19 pages ago....Comes down to sound doctrine over modern religion.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Why must it be arbitrary? Because you say so? God has never been arbitrary. The bible clearly stated that God chose His people before the foundation of the world and that His choice of them was not based on any merit found in them but rather according to His own will. Why did God choose those He elected? I don't know. But to assume it is arbitrary because you don't like the doctrine is just plain wrong.

First of all lets get away from the idea I don't like the doctrine note above where I said.

If you read my statement I wasn't talking about "dead" people but people who are regenerate. I don't believe dead people can even have "faith". But they must be made able to accept faith by being livened up (so to speak) by God.

So you see I don't have a problem with the doctrine. However, I am

to play the devil's advocate then.

I want that out of the way right away before we start. It certainly seems to confuse Dr. Walter. Now that I've cleared that up. lets look at what you are saying.

God has never been arbitrary. The bible clearly stated that God chose His people before the foundation of the world and that His choice of them was not based on any merit found in them but rather according to His own will.

You bring up a good point. You hold that 1) God never has been Arbitrary. Ok. You support it by stating 2) "The bible clearly stated that God chose his people...according to his will." Note, that you do not, in this statement lucidate the operation of God's will but leave it at "his will". Since you did not specify the operation of God's will we must be able to determine how God comes to a decision about such a weighty matter as salvation to whom it is granted and to whom it is denied. You stated that

Why did God choose those He elected? I don't know.

Clearly indicating you don't know or understand the operation of God's decision process which makes this statement

But to assume it is arbitrary... is just plain wrong

Doesn't fly. Primarily because you don't know if it is or not. You only know its "according to God's will". The operation of is unknown. In other words Arbitrary is still on the table. Therefore we must obtain from scriptures the characteristics of God and what God has himself said regarding salvation.

Secondly, you said God doesn't play favorites. I would like to know where that is located in the bible. I know the bible says that God is no respecter of persons, but that does not imply that God treats every individual the same.

These are two different consepts. God is not a respecter of persons or doesn't play favorites based on anything the subject is or does. This is not the same consept as God treats everybody the same. This later view is not true. I suggest that God doesn't choose a "favorite" based on the merits or character of the person but because he wills it. So get past that consept. The will is the determining factor yet we still do not understand its operation. We will discover what it is by scripture and Arbitrary may very well be the mechanism of his will.

In fact, the entire bible disputes the idea that God treats everyone the same. When the bible says God is no respecter of persons the meaning clearly is that God doesn't care about the differences we place between one another like skin color.

irrelevant since this isn't what I meant as stated above.

So what is the mechanism or operation by which the will of God is determined? Lets use your argument. According to you God
1) Did not choose to save the whole world. What we can gather from this view is that where scripture says "for God so loved the World" we must do away with the general application to everything in the world. Because to be all inclusive and then suggest that the later aspect of this passage "that he sent is only begotten son" for only those who believed. And only those who are given the ability to believe were pre-chosen by God. It is clear then by your view we can't take this passage literally that God loves the whole world but loves those he already chose who are in the world. The mechanism of choice is still absent but we know that this verse must be extrapolated to mean God Loved those he previously chose in the world and only they believe. For as later in that passage we see that the world is condemned already. Therefore Since The whole world is not to be viewed as everything in the world we must assume the opposite. Everything other than the elected is already condemned. God hates sin and thus the Whole world apart from the Elect is dispised. God will destroy the world and everything in it. God's wrath is evident in this passage. Yet we still don't know the mechanism of God's will. So lets explore further
2)You state that God does not chose people by their merits which makes sence if he chose the people before the world was created. We must then also assume that those not chosen are automatically in a state of condemnation. Thus if the world is condemned already and salvation is only for the few chosen with out merit before the world began we can safely say that God chose not to deliver these people from condemnation and not choosing in this sence is a choice. We can note in several passages in scripture that God has prechosen people to objects of wrath. So again we see God's wrath. Therefore this being so prevelant within the view of salvation. We can note that God's wrath play's a significant role in his decision making process. God's anger must be satiated. So much so that he sent his son to die for those he chose not to exhibit his wrath on. Therefore we see God's wrath demonstrated against the majority of humanity and his own son in order to satiate his anger which is in his mind is justice. Thus we see God's emotion is involved in his decision making process.

Now why must it be arbitrary? Well, we know that God does not base his decision for whom he saves based on actions accomplished. Nor does he base it on the persons character as he is no respecter of persons. We understand he satiates his anger and wrath but saves only a view. He chooses whom will be eternally tormented which satisfies his sense of Justice. We know from Job that God is willing to allow satan to conduct evil on Job to prove a point to Satan, Job and the readers of Scripture but note he also does not answer Job. His defense is that he happens to have made the universe and it is his to do with as he pleases. Being created we therefore have no rights to question. So we see that He conducts the universe in such a manner as pleases him. Angles constantly praise him in his thrown room and he requires absolute total surrender of our selves (those whom he has chosen). It seems Ego is also at play here. Therefore a person in determining the mechanism of his will understands that its based on his 1) wrath 2) and what happens to pleases him. A manager who had such qualities would be accused of arbitrary decision making. And so here as well. What ever God's emotional state is with regard to what pleases him contributes to his decision making process. It has nothing to do with men or how he loves them then but arbitrarily on what he wants to which we still aren't clear all the aspects of that are.

 

[webdog]

It does not get much clearer than this:


Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.



At the end of the day, I believe that a lot of otherwise well-meaning and devoted Christians have the same sin as Adan and Eve in the garden. They choose to exercise their wills above the direct command of God, with, sadly, the same result. Have we not learned yet that God is God and nothing less, and we humans are human and nothing more? Our King says to come and bow, and so we do... By His bidding, not through any merit of our own!

Actually, it does get much clearer than that. John 3:16 being one example.

You have pulled a portion of Scripture out of context (Romans 9-11 needs to be taken all together to understand how "simple" that passage is to understand).

Let's see...God commands man to love even our own enemies, and if we hate we are murderers...yet in His righteousness He doesn't love His enemies and hates. I always thought He took no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but I guess that must be more complex than that simple statement.

 

[webdog]

I haven't forgotten Romans 1. There is not a single place in that chapter that declares that every person on the planet has heard the gospel. I know your argument from Romans 1 and it is both tired and plain wrong. The Gentiles Paul preached to were people who had taken the light of nature and had done the very things Paul condemns in Romans 1, namely worshipping the creature more than the creator. The Romans and Greeks were notorious for this, yet God still sent many of them the gospel and many believed that gospel.

Apparently you don't know my argument. Every human being has been given the truth to either accept or reject through creation, our conscience (God's law written on our heart) and the desire to live forever. Also, read Romans 10.

The argument that every person has been given a chance is completely ridiculous and is easily disproven. There have been plenty of people in history since Jesus ascended into heaven and the Holy Ghost descended on the apostles at Pentecost that have never heard the gospel.

*sigh* Words have meanings. Look up the meaning for reject.

 

[RAdam]

Actually, it does get much clearer than that. John 3:16 being one example.

You have pulled a portion of Scripture out of context (Romans 9-11 needs to be taken all together to understand how "simple" that passage is to understand).

Let's see...God commands man to love even our own enemies, and if we hate we are murderers...yet in His righteousness He doesn't love His enemies and hates. I always thought He took no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but I guess that must be more complex than that simple statement.

If you understood that you were an enemy of God whom He loved while you were yet at emnity with Him, you wouldn't have a single problem. The fact is Paul said that's exactly what we were. We were enemies whom God loved while we were yet opposed to Him, while we were yet sinners.

People teach that God loves people who end up in hell forever separated from Him. That directly violates scripture and trashed the love of God and makes it no better than man's love.

 

[RAdam]

Apparently you don't know my argument. Every human being has been given the truth to either accept or reject through creation, our conscience (God's law written on our heart) and the desire to live forever. Also, read Romans 10.

*sigh* Words have meanings. Look up the meaning for reject.

And the Gentiles Paul brought the gospel to had already rejected the truth of God through creation.

I read Romans 10. That is a chapter which talks primarily about God dealing with Jews.

 

[RAdam]

Thinkingstuff once again proves that he has no idea what I believe but is all too ready to act as if he does.

The only thing God ever assigns as a reason for His choosing of His people is His sovereign will. That may not satisfy you, but it does me. You take such and determine in your own mind that God must be arbitrary in conducting His election of His people. In doing so you clearly show that you don't understand God or the bible. God does plenty of things that He hasn't deemed necessary to give us the reasons for yet. That doesn't mean these actions are arbitrary. That means God hasn't given us reasons for them yet. He doesn't have to. God is sovereign, God does what He wants, and He doesn't owe man anything, much less an explanation.

God didn't choose the wicked to go to hell. He chose the righteous unto life eternal and before prepared them unto glory. He endures with much longsuffering the wicked. He left them right where they were, that is in their sins. We were also in our sins, but God in His great mercy plucked us out of our sins. He chose us in Christ. Until your understand these great truths, you don't understand election. If you don't understand election, you need to stay out of discussions on election. God didn't choose a few, that's a lie perpretrated by those that dislike the doctrine of election. God's people are many, beyond our ability to number them. I'll tell you this: the doctrine of election will get a lot more people into heaven than your system. What will you do with Gentiles living in spiritual darkness before Christ? I don't have a problem with them because God chose His people in Christ before the world began. What about people that don't hear the gospel? I don't have a problem with them because God chose His people. Paul goes to Corinth and what comforts him there? The doctrine of election. God tells him not to hold his peace but to speak because God has much people in that city.

 

[Max Kennedy]

I have a real-world situation that you can use to make your case; whichever side you argue. My 7yr old asked if she could be baptized. Last night, I asked her what it means to be saved. Her answer was, "you have to believe in Christ as the only one who could die on the cross & take away our sins & that He is the only true God & the only one who could rise from the dead".

So, do you believe she is a believer or not? Does she have to "turn from her sins" in order to be saved? A more accurate question would be, does she have to turn from her sin nature to be saved?

I was saved when I was seven, and it was a real salvation and you know when you are saved.

You should not delay her in being baptized. Water baptism is nothing, and making it like it is actually causes doubt, like men are in charge of your salvation and not Jesus. Don't do that.

Mar 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. 6 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

 

[Max Kennedy]

Salvation begins within the heart manifested into the life by revealed attitudes, words and actions all of which is consistent with the word of God. However, a vain or dead faith begins with the mouth manifested primarily mechanical attitudes, words and actions missing not only the spirit of Christ but usually promoting beliefs and manifested in actions contrary to the Word of God.

Sort of like a preacher mouthing words for a paycheck huh?

 

[Max Kennedy]

All of my five children have made professions of faith under my ministry. However, .

Friend, I think had more wisdom when I was saved at 7 then you have now.

Your studying the wrong profession, because you've told God what he can do in your vanity. At that young age, God even sent an angel once in the library of that church when I was mediating (I didn't call it that back then), and I've seen miracles ever since.

John the baptist moved in his mothers womb. Who are you?

 

[Max Kennedy]

The question was, "How do we turn from our sin nature while in the flesh? Is it not like turning away from the air around us?"

In other words, how do "dead people" respond to God?

Good question for Halloween :tongue3:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Thinkingstuff once again proves that he has no idea what I believe but is all too ready to act as if he does.

This statement by you shows 1) You in ability to consider the context of things 2) Lack of reading comprehension. And 3) in ability to engage in a simple debate. Note I did not assume what you believe. Look at the post again. First note I said

First of all lets get away from the idea I don't like the doctrine

So from this simple statement you know I'm not really in disagreement with the doctrine that you purported. Secondly note you said

God has never been arbitrary. The bible clearly stated that God chose His people before the foundation of the world and that His choice of them was not based on any merit found in them but rather according to His own will.

Followed up by this statement

Why did God choose those He elected?

Now from these statements it can be determined that 1) you have a belief in the elect. I did not assume you to have such but you admitted it. and 2) my response was to these statements such as

You bring up a good point. You hold that 1) God never has been Arbitrary. Ok. You support it by stating 2) "The bible clearly stated that God chose his people...according to his will." Note, that you do not, in this statement lucidate the operation of God's will but leave it at "his will".

Which indicates clearly that I am responding to your belief of an elect. To hold this doctrine you also brought up other aspects of it to which I also commented such as people were elected before the creation. Thus I made an argument stemming from what you said and pointed out the issues and the problems I see with that belief. That if you took it to its conclusion election is based on God's will which from what can be determined in scriptures is arbitrary to refute your claim that it is not. So this first sentence I quoted from you shows your lack of understanding of what it is we are saying.

The only thing God ever assigns as a reason for His choosing of His people is His sovereign will.

Yes which I've shown is arbitrarily based on his emotion of wrath and what ever his pleasure is. Which means that other people are chosen to burn for eternity based on the same mechanism.

That may not satisfy you, but it does me.

If that is what you wish to believe but I think its a bit shallow.

You take such and determine in your own mind that God must be arbitrary in conducting His election of His people.

Its an excersise in logic and again you missed rather valuable information in the text.

In doing so you clearly show that you don't understand God or the bible.

In fact I believe I do and I have as much authority to say as you. You've clearly shown you don't read with comprehension and I wonder if you do the same with the bible.

God does plenty of things that He hasn't deemed necessary to give us the reasons for yet.

Is that because he's purposely hidding the reason? Or beyond our understanding? Or that its irrelevant because its arbitrary? each can fit.

That doesn't mean these actions are arbitrary.

You haven't proved that point. All you've shown is that it can be other than arbitrary but not necissarily so.

That means God hasn't given us reasons for them yet.

Or doesn't have them.

He doesn't have to. God is sovereign, God does what He wants, and He doesn't owe man anything, much less an explanation.

I knew you would go there which is why I mentioned Job in my last post. Your argument basically is "I'm God and your my creation I can do with you what I want when I want and you can't do anything about it" which if argument is therefore true it shows a characteristic of God that show irresponsiblity towards his creation and should a creator take responsibility for his creation? Obviously you and the God revealed in Job does not think so.

God didn't choose the wicked to go to hell.

Yes he did by not electing them. If only the elect are regerate and are chosen then by not choosing to elect others God has chosen to condemn them already. If you vote for a canidate this Nov 2nd you are purposely not voting for another canidate. You've chosen between the two. Remember "Jacob" he loved and "Essau" he hated.

He chose the righteous unto life eternal and before prepared them unto glory.

And by not choosing the rest of the world he chose their condemnation.

He endures with much longsuffering the wicked.

Irrelevant when their outcome is assured. They were chosen before the creation of the world to remain in wickedness. Surely longsuffering is a moderate gesture from a Hating God.

He left them right where they were, that is in their sins

Yes He chose to do that.

We were also in our sins, but God in His great mercy plucked us out of our sins.

Only the elect. No one else. So God wasn't merciful to anyone else. Nor, can he love them since he gives them no opportunity for repentance. They are not elect.

He chose us in Christ. Until your understand these great truths, you don't understand election.

I understand these truths very well and I've read the Institutes (with comprehension). I wonder if you do?

 

[RAdam]

Allow me to present you with a scenario regarding choice, since you insist on judging God's election of men in such an unfair manner. This scenario is not meant to depect God's election, but merely to point out the ridiculous stand you have taken regarding choice.

You are the boss of a company hiring to fill one open spot. You interview two candidates and choose one of them. You chose to hire one of them, and left the other one in the unemployment line still looking for a job. The unemployed man is unable to find a job and ends up going through a downward spiral and committing suicide. Question: did you choose for that to go through such a downward turn and end his own life? Of course not. You simply left him where he was and chose someone else instead.

It is absolutely ridiculous to insist that because God chose Peter unto salvation before the world began and didn't choose Judas, that God chose Judas unto eternal condemnation. Not only is that against the bible, it is against common sense, as well as it is a standard to which you wouldn't dare hold yourself. God didn't choose Judas or any of the wicked unto eternal condemnation, but rather left them alone. Man put himself under eternal condemnation, and had God never taken a single action towards man every single member of Adam's race would end up in hell. But, had God not chosen His people unto salvation and done that which is necessary to procure such salvation, not a single person would end up in heaven. That's the difference and that is why you are wrong in your position on God's choice. Nothing was required from God for man to end up in hell, while every single part of salvation is contingent upon God. God didn't choose the wicked unto everlasting punishment. Every person was headed there already. God chose to pull many from this condemnation and fix their eternal destination to heaven. That is election.

 

[RAdam]

By the way, Calvin's Institutes are not the bible. Sometimes Calvin was right, sometimes he was wrong. People want to restrict grace believers to Calvin's views and act as if we must follow them. How ridiculous! I follow the bible first and foremost, not some fallible man, no matter how good that man was.