What do you believe is required for Salvation?

[Thinkingstuff]

You are one confused kid.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Justification is not a process, is not progressive, and never was. It happens once, and that is when a person is born again of the Spirit of God, that is when he initially puts his faith in Christ and is saved. The rest of his Christian life is sanctification, which has nothing to do with justification. There is no such thing as progressive justification. We are justified but once in our lives. If you are not justified but one time in your life, perhaps (that person) is not justified at all.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved (and justified).
It is not believe, and then believe again, and then continue to believe again, all the while being justified each time you believe. That speaks of heresy.

Hey, its not my quote I was quoting Luther and Martin Bucer! I'm stating what they've stated trying to deal with this issue in the NT. Be fair!

 

[RAdam]

What do you believe is required for Salvation? A perfect sacrifice! That's God's provision and our part is to cast ourselves on his mercy and be willing to follow Jesus.......turn or burn! :type: BTW if someone says I want salvation "free ticket" but don't want God to telling them what to do will not get born again but the wrath of God remains on them.

So God required something perfect for salvation, which Jesus accomplished, yet He requires an imperfect work from the sinner, such as me turning to Jesus Christ? That just doesn't make sense.

 

[RAdam]

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Seems fairly clear to me.
He would have all men (everywhere) to be saved.
Salvation comes through faith in Christ, Christ being the object of our faith.

Nothing like quoting a verse out of context. Paul told us to do what in the context? To pray for all men. What did he mean by all men? Well, he defines that term: "for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honestly. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God and our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." All men apparently, by the context, didn't mean every single person in the world universally. It meant all manner of men.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I have a real-world situation that you can use to make your case; whichever side you argue. My 7yr old asked if she could be baptized. Last night, I asked her what it means to be saved. Her answer was, "you have to believe in Christ as the only one who could die on the cross & take away our sins & that He is the only true God & the only one who could rise from the dead".

So, do you believe she is a believer or not? Does she have to "turn from her sins" in order to be saved? A more accurate question would be, does she have to turn from her sin nature to be saved?

 

[chadman]

I have a real-world situation that you can use to make your case; whichever side you argue. My 7yr old asked if she could be baptized. Last night, I asked her what it means to be saved. Her answer was, "you have to believe in Christ as the only one who could die on the cross & take away our sins & that He is the only true God & the only one who could rise from the dead".

So, do you believe she is a believer or not? Does she have to "turn from her sins" in order to be saved? A more accurate question would be, does she have to turn from her sin nature to be saved?

What did Phillip do in the Bible when this similar sentiment and belief was expressed to him by the enuch? Even the Enuch asked the same question of Phillip!

 

[Jedi Knight]

So God required something perfect for salvation, which Jesus accomplished, yet He requires an imperfect work from the sinner, such as me turning to Jesus Christ? That just doesn't make sense.

Then you haven't considered the whole counsel of scripture.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I have a real-world situation that you can use to make your case; whichever side you argue. My 7yr old asked if she could be baptized. Last night, I asked her what it means to be saved. Her answer was, "you have to believe in Christ as the only one who could die on the cross & take away our sins & that He is the only true God & the only one who could rise from the dead".

So, do you believe she is a believer or not? Does she have to "turn from her sins" in order to be saved? A more accurate question would be, does she have to turn from her sin nature to be saved?

I would exercise caution. If she really is saved then going cautiously won't unsave her and it will allow time for the true fruits of salvation to be made manifest as where there is true salvation there will be manifestations of new life. On the other hand, if she simply repeated what she has heard then caution will allow time to manifest that as well.

Salvation begins within the heart manifested into the life by revealed attitudes, words and actions all of which is consistent with the word of God. However, a vain or dead faith begins with the mouth manifested primarily mechanical attitudes, words and actions missing not only the spirit of Christ but usually promoting beliefs and manifested in actions contrary to the Word of God.

 

[DHK]

I have a real-world situation that you can use to make your case; whichever side you argue. My 7yr old asked if she could be baptized. Last night, I asked her what it means to be saved. Her answer was, "you have to believe in Christ as the only one who could die on the cross & take away our sins & that He is the only true God & the only one who could rise from the dead".

So, do you believe she is a believer or not? Does she have to "turn from her sins" in order to be saved? A more accurate question would be, does she have to turn from her sin nature to be saved?

I know of many children that were saved at a young age--as young as four, and still testify to that time as their salvation today. They are in the ministry. They are on this board. I have read their testimonies. Why would I question their salvation?

What is repentance? It is the flip side of faith. One cannot have saving faith in Christ without repenting at the same time. That saving faith is repentance. They are one and the same thing. When you put your faith in Christ you are turning your back on your former way of life. When the object of your faith becomes Christ, then you have changed the object of your faith from sin and the world to Christ and obedience to Him. You see how faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other.

 

[DHK]

Nothing like quoting a verse out of context. Paul told us to do what in the context? To pray for all men. What did he mean by all men? Well, he defines that term: "for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honestly. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God and our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." All men apparently, by the context, didn't mean every single person in the world universally. It meant all manner of men.

All men means all men. I don't question God as you seem to do.
All men means all as it does in John 3:16 when God so loved (all men) the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever (whoever of all men) believes on him should have everlasting life.

All men means all men.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

All men means all men.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
--These are God's inspired words. He brings salvation to all men.
In other words all men have a chance to be saved.

In Romans 1:20 he tells us that they are without excuse.
In Romans 2:14,15 he tells us the same thing again.

 

[Amy.G]

Nothing like quoting a verse out of context. Paul told us to do what in the context? To pray for all men. What did he mean by all men? Well, he defines that term: "for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honestly. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God and our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." All men apparently, by the context, didn't mean every single person in the world universally. It meant all manner of men.

Albert Barnes says it better than me, so I will quote him. It's a long read but well worth it.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
1 Timothy 2:4
Verse 4. Who will have all men to be saved. That is, it is in accordance with his nature, his feelings, his desires. The word will cannot be taken here in the absolute sense, denoting a decree like that by which he willed the creation of the world, for then it would certainly be done. But the word is often used to denote a desire, wish, or what is in accordance with the nature of any one. Thus it may be said of God that he "wills" that his creatures may be happy--because it is in accordance with his nature, and because he has made abundant provision for their happiness--though it is not true that he wills it in the sense that he exerts his absolute power to make them happy. God wills that sickness should be relieved, and sorrow mitigated, and that the oppressed should go free, because it is agreeable to his nature; though it is not true that he wills it in the sense that he exerts his absolute power to produce it. A parent wills the welfare of his child. It is in accordance with his nature, his feelings, his desires; and he makes every needful arrangement for it. If the child is not virtuous and happy, it is his own fault. So God wills that all men should be saved. It would be in accordance with his benevolent nature. He has made ample provision for it. He uses all proper means to secure their salvation. He uses no positive means to prevent it, and if they are not saved it will be their own fault. For places in the New Testament where the word here translated "will" (qelw) means to desire or wish, Lu 8:20; 23:8; Joh 16:19; Ga 4:20; Mr 7:24; 1Co 7:7; 11:3; 14:5; Mt 15:28. This passage cannot mean, as many have supposed, that God wills that all kinds of men should be saved, or that some sinners of every rank and class may be saved, because
(1.) the natural and obvious interpretation of the language is opposed to such a sense. The language expresses the desire that "all men" should be saved, and we should not depart from the obvious sense of a passage unless necessity requires it.

(2.) Prayer and thanksgiving 1Ti 2:1 are directed to be offered, not for some of all ranks and conditions, but for all mankind. No exception is made, and no direction is given that we should exclude any of the race from the expressions of our sympathy, and from an interest in our supplications. The reason given here for that prayer is, that God desires that all men should be saved. But how could this be a reason for praying for all, if it means that God desired only the salvation of some of all ranks?

(3.) In 1Ti 2:5-6, the apostle gives reasons showing that God wished the salvation of all men, and those reasons are such as to prove that the language here is to be taken in the most unlimited sense. Those reasons are,

(a) that there is one God over all, and one Mediator between God and men--showing that God is the Father of all, and has the same interest in all; and

(b) that Christ gave himself a ransom for all--showing that God desired their salvation. This verse proves

(1.) that salvation is provided for all --for if God wished all men to be saved, he would undoubtedly make provision for their salvation; and if he had not made such provision, it could not be said that he desired their salvation, since no one can doubt that he has power to provide for the salvation of all;

(2.) that salvation should be offered to all men--for if God desires it, it is right for his ministers to announce that desire, and if he desires it, it is not proper for them to announce anything contrary to this;

(3.) that men are to blame if they are not saved. If God did not wish their salvation, and if he had made no provision for it, they could not be to blame if they rejected the gospel. If God wishes it, and has made provision for it, and they are not saved, the sin must be their own--and it is a great sin, for there is no greater crime which a man can commit than to destroy his own soul, and to make himself the eternal enemy of his Maker.

And to come unto the knowledge of the truth. The truth which God has revealed: the "truth as it is in Jesus."

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I have a real-world situation that you can use to make your case; whichever side you argue. My 7yr old asked if she could be baptized. Last night, I asked her what it means to be saved. Her answer was, "you have to believe in Christ as the only one who could die on the cross & take away our sins & that He is the only true God & the only one who could rise from the dead".

So, do you believe she is a believer or not? Does she have to "turn from her sins" in order to be saved? A more accurate question would be, does she have to turn from her sin nature to be saved?

Isn't turning away from her sins implicit in her statement of faith. By the way I bet your a proud father! Its wonderful when your children proclaim Jesus as savior! I know I was.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Isn't turning away from her sins implicit in her statement of faith. By the way I bet your a proud father! Its wonderful when your children proclaim Jesus as savior! I know I was.

How do we turn from our sin nature while in the flesh? Is it not like turning away from the air around us?

Yes, I am. We strive to teach our children the meaning of Biblical regeneration apart from religious traditions.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

How do we turn from our sin nature while in the flesh? Is it not like turning away from the air around us?

Yes, I am. We strive to teach our children the meaning of Biblical regeneration apart from religious traditions.

No not really. A regenerate person is given the ability to "deny" themselves and to "lay" down their lives, and to "strive" to be immitators of Christ, to pick up their "cross" and to follow him. Though our sinful nature colors our character we can work against it as we run our race.

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?...6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin...12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God...18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness... 14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

 

[glfredrick]

No not really. A regenerate person is given the ability to "deny" themselves and to "lay" down their lives, and to "strive" to be immitators of Christ, to pick up their "cross" and to follow him. Though our sinful nature colors our character we can work against it as we run our race.

The question was, "How do we turn from our sin nature while in the flesh? Is it not like turning away from the air around us?"

In other words, how do "dead people" respond to God?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The question was, "How do we turn from our sin nature while in the flesh? Is it not like turning away from the air around us?"

In other words, how do "dead people" respond to God?

If you read my statement I wasn't talking about "dead" people but people who are regenerate. I don't believe dead people can even have "faith". But they must be made able to accept faith by being livened up (so to speak) by God.

 

[RAdam]

So, here are things I've learned from this thread.

- God is not willing for a single person in the world to perish, thus He has not returned yet. However, the bible clearly tells me that some will perish. So God is not willing for anyone to perish, but yet some will perish. God's will must not be very strong. In fact, man's will appears to be stronger than God's will.

- Everyone is given the opportunity to be saved. However, it is manifest that not everyone has heard the gospel. That's clear from the fact that all the time missionaries are reaching villages where never the gospel has been. So, apparently not everyone has been given the opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ. Of course, let's not forget the fact that God gave His word only to Israel in the OT times and that it wasn't preached abroad to Gentiles until several years after Jesus ascended into heaven. Throw all of that out though because someone wants to believe God has given everyone the opportunity to be saved.

A little reason goes a long way.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So, here are things I've learned from this thread.

- God is not willing for a single person in the world to perish, thus He has not returned yet. However, the bible clearly tells me that some will perish. So God is not willing for anyone to perish, but yet some will perish. God's will must not be very strong. In fact, man's will appears to be stronger than God's will.

- Everyone is given the opportunity to be saved. However, it is manifest that not everyone has heard the gospel. That's clear from the fact that all the time missionaries are reaching villages where never the gospel has been. So, apparently not everyone has been given the opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ. Of course, let's not forget the fact that God gave His word only to Israel in the OT times and that it wasn't preached abroad to Gentiles until several years after Jesus ascended into heaven. Throw all of that out though because someone wants to believe God has given everyone the opportunity to be saved.

A little reason goes a long way.

So to summerize your pov

"God selected me so I'm good to go. Now as to the rest of you, you better start wearing asbestos clothing."

Or "God didn't love the entire world when the gospel said he did but it means God only loves certain special people in the world. In fact he hates the rest and can care less what they wants so he just tosses them into the fire. Personally, I don't have to worry because I'm one of the elite that God chose to love. So I can profess my faith live like the devil and have nothing to worry about because God chose me over you which makes me better than you." Yep logic rocks.

I wonder how witnessing works? " Now I don't know if God chose to love you or not. However, if he did choose to love you; you must chose him because he only died for a special group of people of whom you may or may not be one. If you actually believe in him its probably a good bet your one of the chosen few whom God only loves but not necissarily so. Also if you don't believe well, your going to get burned anyway so you haven't lost anything. Peace!"

 

[Dr. Walter]

All of my five children have made professions of faith under my ministry. However, my youngest daughter made such a profession at a very young age as your daughter but later was genuinely saved and confessed that her former profession did not change her life.

I have witnessed many young children who simply want to either please their family or be accepted within the community of believers as believers make such professions that do not produce any fruit of repentance in their lives.

This is not a question of for whom Christ died, but a questio of practicality and common sense.

I don't want to press or push or manipulate any of my children or the children of other members to do anything. I want the Lord to be the One who moves that person to confess Him as Savior. Simple profession of Christ does not save anyone and churches are full of unregenerated professors.

I have baptized several children that I have regretted doing so as there was no visible fruits and no manifest JOY that permeated their being and testimony. I have learned that when visible fruits are not present and there is no vibrant testimony it is best to wait and than to confirm them in a false profession thinking they are saved when they are really not. You cannot unsave a person by asking them to wait and confirm to themselves and to the church fruits of repentance but you can harm children by confirming them in a profession that is for all visible purposes void of true fruits of repentance.

 

[webdog]

- God is not willing for a single person in the world to perish, thus He has not returned yet. However, the bible clearly tells me that some will perish. So God is not willing for anyone to perish, but yet some will perish. God's will must not be very strong. In fact, man's will appears to be stronger than God's will.

I guess you would call Jesus weak when He was lamenting over Jerusalem? God is not strong for exercising His permissive will? You have an odd view of God's power / will.

- Everyone is given the opportunity to be saved. However, it is manifest that not everyone has heard the gospel. That's clear from the fact that all the time missionaries are reaching villages where never the gospel has been. So, apparently not everyone has been given the opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ. Of course, let's not forget the fact that God gave His word only to Israel in the OT times and that it wasn't preached abroad to Gentiles until several years after Jesus ascended into heaven. Throw all of that out though because someone wants to believe God has given everyone the opportunity to be saved.

I guess you somehow have totally forgotten Romans 1.

 

[RAdam]

I guess you would call Jesus weak when He was lamenting over Jerusalem? God is not strong for exercising His permissive will? You have an odd view of God's power / will.
I guess you somehow have totally forgotten Romans 1.

What was Jesus lamented over? The fact that they would be destroyed in 40 years. Jesus never said He willed for them to be saved from hell. He didn't even have hell under consideration.

I haven't forgotten Romans 1. There is not a single place in that chapter that declares that every person on the planet has heard the gospel. I know your argument from Romans 1 and it is both tired and plain wrong. The Gentiles Paul preached to were people who had taken the light of nature and had done the very things Paul condemns in Romans 1, namely worshipping the creature more than the creator. The Romans and Greeks were notorious for this, yet God still sent many of them the gospel and many believed that gospel.

The argument that every person has been given a chance is completely ridiculous and is easily disproven. There have been plenty of people in history since Jesus ascended into heaven and the Holy Ghost descended on the apostles at Pentecost that have never heard the gospel.