What do you believe is required for Salvation?

[RAdam]

No difficulty whatsoever. Been there, done that. I can do the same thing, but does it serve a purpose? If it's so cut and dried as you say, why is there any debate on the matter, afteralll centuries of Spirit indwelt believers should have gotten it right!

Scripture doesn't contradict...so here you go:
Acts 17 26And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

I'm glad you quotes those texts because I am absolutely sure you have no idea what they mean. Paul describes the condition God left Gentiles in - a position in spiritual darkness. They are groping in the dark, trying to feel their way toward Him and find Him, if haply they might do so. The sad thing is He isn't that far away, but they didn't find Him. In other words, God has acted towards one group of people in a way He hasn't towards another. He gave the Jews light while He left the Gentiles in darkness. The Jews were not left to grope in the dark if haply they might find Him. Instead, they were brought close to God, given the service of God, and from them sprang Messiah. Was God unjust to favor Jew over Gentile in this manner in the OT days? Of course not. Why? Because He is God.

God favors some over others. You would say that isn't fair. God says otherwise.

 

[RAdam]

Well we'll put aside the fact that you just contradicted yourself for just a moment.

Where does God command man to have faith in Christ as his Savior? I'd like to see this verse because I can't think of a single instance.

 

[RAdam]

Now to the contradiction.

In one post you said it is the object of one's faith that saves, that being Christ. Then you stated is it faith in Christ that saves.

Which one is it? Is it the object or the faith that saves?

 

[webdog]

Well we'll put aside the fact that you just contradicted yourself for just a moment.

Where does God command man to have faith in Christ as his Savior? I'd like to see this verse because I can't think of a single instance.

Are you serious? Ever read Acts 16:31 or Romans 10:9?

 

[RAdam]

Are you serious? Ever read Acts 16:31 or Romans 10:9?

Those verses are commands from God to men everywhere to faith in Christ as Savior? Must have missed that in those verses.

 

[webdog]

Now to the contradiction.

In one post you said it is the object of one's faith that saves, that being Christ. Then you stated is it faith in Christ that saves.

Which one is it? Is it the object or the faith that saves?

I didn't contradict, you just can't read. You insist God gives a few people this nebulous gift of "saving faith" He doesn't give the non elect...yet still demands the non elect somehow conjure up this "saving faith" on their own, and when they cannot (since He didn't give them any), He says "AHA! You did not do what I commanded! Off to eternal punishment".

Faith...even the size of a mustard seed...if placed in Christ will save.

 

[webdog]

Those verses are commands from God to men everywhere to faith in Christ as Savior? Must have missed that in those verses.

I guess you did.

 

[RAdam]

You make the same mistake Andrew Fuller made. You assume that God has commanded all men everywhere to have faith in Christ as their Savior, and thus Christ must have died for all men everywhere and have given all men everywhere the capacity to believe in Him as Savior.

The problem with this is obvious. God never commanded all men everywhere to have faith in Christ as their Savior. There is no verse in the bible that tells some suicided bomber in the Middle East that he is commanded to believe on Jesus as his Savior. God has commanded all men everywhere to repent. He has commanded that men believe the testimony given regarding His Son, that He is the Son of God. One denying that fact is saying God is a liar. But, God commanding these things is not commanding men to have faith in Christ as Savior. This is the so-called duty faith nonsense that split the baptists.

In order for one to believe Christ is his Savior, Christ must be his Savior.

 

[RAdam]

I didn't contradict, you just can't read. You insist God gives a few people this nebulous gift of "saving faith" He doesn't give the non elect...yet still demands the non elect somehow conjure up this "saving faith" on their own, and when they cannot (since He didn't give them any), He says "AHA! You did not do what I commanded! Off to eternal punishment".

Faith...even the size of a mustard seed...if placed in Christ will save.

So what you are saying is your faith saves you, not Christ? Gotcha. And because you placed your faith in Christ you are saved. Joe over here didn't, thus he isn't saved. So Christ did the same thing for both of you, the difference being your action of placing faith in Christ. Congrats, you saved yourself according to your view.

Of course, you also have the problem that God never required every single man, woman, and child to conjure up "saving faith". People sent to hell will be sent there for sins not for failing to meet some condition you have conjured up.

 

[DHK]

You make the same mistake Andrew Fuller made. You assume that God has commanded all men everywhere to have faith in Christ as their Savior, and thus Christ must have died for all men everywhere and have given all men everywhere the capacity to believe in Him as Savior.

The problem with this is obvious. God never commanded all men everywhere to have faith in Christ as their Savior.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Seems fairly clear to me.
He would have all men (everywhere) to be saved.
Salvation comes through faith in Christ, Christ being the object of our faith.

 

[webdog]

So what you are saying is your faith saves you, not Christ? Gotcha. And because you placed your faith in Christ you are saved. Joe over here didn't, thus he isn't saved. So Christ did the same thing for both of you, the difference being your action of placing faith in Christ. Congrats, you saved yourself according to your view.

Of course, you also have the problem that God never required every single man, woman, and child to conjure up "saving faith". People sent to hell will be sent there for sins not for failing to meet some condition you have conjured up.

You know darn well I didn't say that. You are being completely intellectually dishonest at this point and any further debate with you is pointless. You have completely let your theology interpret the whole of Scripture.

You continue to believe God will be eternally unpaid for sins committed against Him...I'l trust Jesus when He said "It is finished".

 

[chadman]

I disagree. We all agree that we are saved by grace through faith. It's how we arrive at the faith we are debating.

Yeah, well if we can't even agree on HOW to get it, we have a serious problem now don't we?

 

[Max Kennedy]

That verse says no such thing. You are reading that into the text. It says all those who come to Christ were drawn by the Father and no man can come to Christ apart from this. You have applied the converse of absolute truth as also absolute truth, and that is not the case.
If He has not equipped them with this "saving faith" but yet requires them to have "saving faith"? Absolutely.
There is no magical, mystical "saving faith" that only a few receive. There is a faith that saves...it's the object of one's faith that saves, Jesus Christ.

Nothing you say quotes the bible. Therefore, all your arguments are literally unbiblical. That is a major problem.

 

[Max Kennedy]

Quote:
John 6 says not all can come but those who the Father draws. And it says of those who do not believe, not all men can come, except it were given to him by the Father.

That verse says no such thing. You are reading that into the text. It says all those who come to Christ were drawn by the Father and no man can come to Christ apart from this. You have applied the converse of absolute truth as also absolute truth, and that is not the case.

I quoted several verses, not one. And it was Jesus Christ talking about why those who didn't believe didn't believe. I'm pretty sure I could argue your position better than you are doing too - but I'm just trying to discover what is actually true. I also believe in "whosover will". I see no conflict in bible verses.

Quote:
Is it unjust that God will send many people to hell?

If He has not equipped them with this "saving faith" but yet requires them to have "saving faith"? Absolutely.

See, you are defining faith different. It is impossible for someone to have faith and not be saved, because it is what it means.

You also didn't ask what I actually asked, and I think its important.

Do you believe it is unjust that God is going to send many people to hell? Do you believe the bible says that?

Do you believe that God gives faith to people? If so, why do they go to hell if they have faith?

 

[DHK]

See, you are defining faith different. It is impossible for someone to have faith and not be saved, because it is what it means.

A profound statement! "It is what it means."
What does it mean? What do you believe "faith" means?

 

[chadman]

This of course depends on what your definition of 'is' is. :tongue3:

 

[Jedi Knight]

What do you believe is required for Salvation? A perfect sacrifice! That's God's provision and our part is to cast ourselves on his mercy and be willing to follow Jesus.......turn or burn! :type: BTW if someone says I want salvation "free ticket" but don't want God to telling them what to do will not get born again but the wrath of God remains on them.

 

[Max Kennedy]

A profound statement! "It is what it means."
What does it mean? What do you believe "faith" means?

Faith means the same thing as Romans 10:8-10:10, which is to believe in your heart and confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and the gospel message, which is from the faith God gives you, and Paul calls it "the word of faith", which he preaches.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

You can't believe "in your heart" without faith from God, but you can confess it with your heart far away, just repeating words. Jesus also says all that come to him, he will in no wise cast out. You note here, faith actually isn't divorced from works - because you are suppose to confess with your mouth - or in other parts of the gospel is said Repent and believe the gospel. Believing isn't quite the same thing as asking, but its part of it if you believe the one you are asking - faith.

I do not think that we are talking about faith - I think we are talking about who can get faith, which is a different question again. If you define faith as something everyone has, then the "faithful", instead of meaning believers and Christians, means EVERYONE. I don't think any of us believe that.

God gives you the faith. How He does that and He chooses his elect is what I think is actually being talked about, and I don't think we all fully understand. We understand when we are saved though - Romans 10. If I was going to try to develop an argument different than what I know, I would look at these verses:

Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire - Matthew. They will all be taught by God. The part of John right after John 3:16. This is all counterbalanced by God knows who He is going to save beforehand - and He is our Father.

Perhaps being happy we simply have the faith God gives us is enough :tongue3:

 

[Chowmah]

I disagree. We all agree that we are saved by grace through faith. It's how we arrive at the faith we are debating.

According to the Word we arrive at faith as it is written in Gal.3

GALATIANS 3 [23] But BEFORE FAITH CAME, WE WERE KEPT UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] Wherefore THE LAW WAS OUR SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US UNTO CHRIST, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We must 1st go to the schoolmaster. Although many will claim Gal.3 doesnt really say what it says

 

[webdog]

Nothing you say quotes the bible. Therefore, all your arguments are literally unbiblical. That is a major problem.

Now you are either not being honest or haven't read too many posts. All of my arguments come from Scripture. I'm not going to post individual passage after passage out of context to prove my point. You don't have to quote Scripture in each post to know what Scripture says.