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What do you believe is required for Salvation?
- Thread starter Thinkingstuff
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Too broad of a question, and not in one post...and I have done so many times before.
Really? It doesn't mean what it says? Paul said, "but the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." That's a pretty simple verse. The natural man will not and cannot receive those things we have received, those things revealed by the Spirit of God. Paul earlier said, "now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things freely given to us of God." Pretty simple. The natural man cannot and will not receive those things, but we have, and thus we know the things freely given to us of God. In the previous chapter Paul said that "the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness." Same idea.
God is not unjust in giving faith to some and not to others. God is not unjust because one is able to receive and know the things of the Spirit of God and another is unable. God was never obligated by anything or anyone to give anyone anything. That's the point you miss. You obligate God to do something God was never obligated to do. God is righteous and just to show mercy to one and not to another. God is righteous to do with His creation as He sees fit, and you and I cannot question Him and or His actions.
God is not unjust in giving faith to some and not to others. God is not unjust because one is able to receive and know the things of the Spirit of God and another is unable. God was never obligated by anything or anyone to give anyone anything. That's the point you miss. You obligate God to do something God was never obligated to do. God is righteous and just to show mercy to one and not to another. God is righteous to do with His creation as He sees fit, and you and I cannot question Him and or His actions.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Election means to choose. God chooses certain persons and nations to do his bidding. They can be chosen for service, or for salvation or both.
Election for salvation of individuals is Biblical (Eph. 1:4; 1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Thes. 2:13; etc.).
That choice occurred before the world (Eph. 1:4)
That choice was based upon grace and not works (2 Tim. 1:9)
That choice was in spite of foreseen rejection and resistance - Psa. 14:2 with Rom. 3:10-11; 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14
The non-elect were simply left to their own free choice while the elect were given a new "want to" (Deut. 29:4; Ezek. 36:26-27; Philip. 2:13) in connection with the new birth.
Nothing keeps the non-elect out of heaven but their own free determined choice to continue resisting God and nothing places the elect in heaven but the free grace of God.
...and you still completely ignore the context. Paul was speaking to believers who were living as the "natural man".
God IS unjust if those He didn't give it to are still required to have it!
God IS unjust for commanding those He did not give the ability to receive it... to receive it!
I didn't miss anything...I never said He was obligated to save man. He is obligated to do what He says He will do, He cannot violate Himself.
I didn't obligate God to do anything.
That sounds nice and theological, but would you say God is not obligated to save a believer? Can He damn a believer to hell? If not, He cannot just do whatever He wants with His creation...God does what He has said He would do. I'm not questioning God...I'm questioning your view and understanding of God. Huge difference.
No, in the context Paul says here's what we do. We have received the Spirit of God so that we can know the things freely given to us of God. Paul says these things, the things which the Spirit has taught us, we speak with the words the Holy Ghost teaches, comparing spiritual with spiritual. But, says Paul, the natural man (contrasted with "us" who have received the Spirit) is both unable and unwilling to receive these things, because they are foolishness to him (but are the power of God to us) and are spiritual discerned (we know them because we have the Spirit and He teaches us). That's the context. That's what the bible says. Paul is contrasting us that have received the Spirit with the natural man which has not.
The bible nowhere in the context gives on indication that Paul is talking about the audience of the letter when he speaks of the natural man. Instead, the entire context of chapters 1 and 2 is speaking of two groups of people. They are "them that perish" and "us which are saved." They are those to whom Christ crucified is a stumblingblock and foolishness and "us which are called" to whom Christ is "the power of God, and the wisdom of God." They are the us that has received the Spirit of God and the natural man which will not and cannot. It's pretty simple and it is what the whole context is saying. I'm not surprised that you have twisted it though. You're pretty good and reading into scripture that which is not there.
The bible nowhere in the context gives on indication that Paul is talking about the audience of the letter when he speaks of the natural man. Instead, the entire context of chapters 1 and 2 is speaking of two groups of people. They are "them that perish" and "us which are saved." They are those to whom Christ crucified is a stumblingblock and foolishness and "us which are called" to whom Christ is "the power of God, and the wisdom of God." They are the us that has received the Spirit of God and the natural man which will not and cannot. It's pretty simple and it is what the whole context is saying. I'm not surprised that you have twisted it though. You're pretty good and reading into scripture that which is not there.
Why do you stop there? Why conveniently leave off where Paul continues in chapter 3 calling them "worldly" and saying he could not address them spiritually ("are you not acting like mere men (natural man)? Kind of throws a monkey wrench into your thinking about "us" and "them", huh?
Max Kennedy
New Member
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Faith is a work of God in John 6:28.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
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You are truly great at twisting scripture. Let's look at what Paul wrote after the main verse I quoted:
"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is just of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."
The previous verse stated that the natural man, not a man who is acting carnal but a man who is carnal, cannot and will not receive the things of the Spirit of God. He cannot discern them because they are spiritually discerned. It's not that he is merely acting carnal and thus is hindered, he doesn't have the ability because he hasn't received the Spirit. But, says Paul, we have the mind of Christ. We have received the Spirit of God, thus we know the things freely given to us of God. One man cannot and will not receive these things, he can't understand them. Another man has received the Spirit, he does understand these things, and he has the mind of Christ. Obviously he is talking about two different kinds of men.
Now, in chapter 3 he begins upbraiding the Corinthians. Why? For the same reason he started upbraiding them in the first chapter. They are having envyings, strifes, divisions, etc occur among them. They haven't grown up yet. They are acting as if they are carnal men. Carnal men have not the Spirit of God, are emnity against God, cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God, etc. The Corinthians, rather than acting like spiritual men, are acting like carnal men. Paul asks these people a question: "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" The natural man has not received the Spirit of God, yet these men have the Spirit dwelling in them. Obviously they are not natural men.
These are all the "proof texts" I have seen again, and again, and again, and...you get the picture. Not one of those verses is saying what you are making them say, else this debate would have ended a lot sooner than October 2010. John 6:28 in particular is saying God did all the work, we receive. Nothing whatsoever about faith being a gift given to the few.
Max Kennedy
New Member
I didn't say anything about them, just quoted them. What don't you like about those bible passages? You clearly can't know what I think, since I didn't comment on them. But you haven't defined your position well from bible verses, so I thought you might try from those passages.
When I entered this discussion, I wasn't saying anything about how many or how few people would be saved, I was talking about works - and specifically thinking of Lordship Salvation, where people believe they have to do penance before they can even come to Jesus Christ.
But I will take a stab at what you are trying to say next message and see if I understand it.
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Max Kennedy
New Member
John 6 says not all can come but those who the Father draws. And it says of those who do not believe, not all men can come, except it were given to him by the Father.
Since I haven't been arguing whatever you've been arguing, which appears to be over something slightly different, I think we need to define faith.
Is it unjust that God will send many people to hell?
If everyone has "faith" as you define it (and we are defining it differently, so I want to nail it down), then why isn't everyone saved?
Note - I am on no particular side. I just think God saves, and theologies aren't scripture.
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I love it when people try to write off texts as "proof texts". What they are really saying is those texts present their theological positions with difficulty and thus when those texts are brought forth they have to work real hard to get around them.
It's pretty simple. No man can (has the ability) to come to Jesus except the Father draw him. Pretty simple. Everyone taught by the Father comes. All that were given to Him come. None that come will be cast out. This is the work of God. It's pretty simple. God is acting toward some men in a manner He isn't towards others. Yet, though He isn't treating all men in the same manner, He is still just and righteous and holy. That's because He is the potter and we are the clay. He is the Creator, we the created. God has every right to save one man and leave another in his sins.
It's pretty simple. No man can (has the ability) to come to Jesus except the Father draw him. Pretty simple. Everyone taught by the Father comes. All that were given to Him come. None that come will be cast out. This is the work of God. It's pretty simple. God is acting toward some men in a manner He isn't towards others. Yet, though He isn't treating all men in the same manner, He is still just and righteous and holy. That's because He is the potter and we are the clay. He is the Creator, we the created. God has every right to save one man and leave another in his sins.
That verse says no such thing. You are reading that into the text. It says all those who come to Christ were drawn by the Father and no man can come to Christ apart from this. You have applied the converse of absolute truth as also absolute truth, and that is not the case.
If He has not equipped them with this "saving faith" but yet requires them to have "saving faith"? Absolutely.
There is no magical, mystical "saving faith" that only a few receive. There is a faith that saves...it's the object of one's faith that saves, Jesus Christ.
No difficulty whatsoever. Been there, done that. I can do the same thing, but does it serve a purpose? If it's so cut and dried as you say, why is there any debate on the matter, afteralll centuries of Spirit indwelt believers should have gotten it right!
Scripture doesn't contradict...so here you go:
Acts 17 26And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,
I disagree. We all agree that we are saved by grace through faith. It's how we arrive at the faith we are debating.
There is no "saving faith". Faith in Christ is what saves.
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