What do you believe is required for Salvation?

[RAdam]

God didn't create a Son. Pretty much everything else you presented afterwards can be discarded once this fact is brought to light.

 

[Steven2006]

An unregenerated person has no idea what surrendering to Christ means. That can only come once we are in union with Christ through faith. I know many say we must turn from our sins in order to receive salvation, but that is not the biblical definition of repentance, it is turning to Christ for salvation. Once we are saved by God's grace through faith we can surrender our life to Him...and it's not a one time event, it is a lifelong change in being transformed into Christ's image. A new believer is referred to as a spiritual infant who can only take in milk. A baby does not know how to change their entire direction in life upon birth, they grow into it. Same principal applied to new believers.

How does one believe they are lost and in the need for a saviour, recognize that Jesus is that saviour, that He died for us on the cross was buried and rose again, trust (put his/her faith) in Jesus to save him/her, and yet at the same time not recognize his/her sin, and be repentant (turn from) of those sins?

I am not understanding how a person can come to the understanding he is lost (because of his sin) separated from God (because of his sin), see his sins as God sees them, and not want to turn from them, and place his trust and faith in Jesus to save him?

The life long event is the sanctification process we go through after we are saved, as we become more like Jesus as we grow.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

God didn't create a Son. Pretty much everything else you presented afterwards can be discarded once this fact is brought to light.

Ok change the persons "create a son" to became the son. and jumps off a cliff. You got the same basic example. Does it make sense?

 

[webdog]

How does one believe they are lost and in the need for a saviour, recognize that Jesus is that saviour, that He died for us on the cross was buried and rose again, trust (put his/her faith) in Jesus to save him/her, and yet at the same time not recognize his/her sin, and be repentant (turn from) of those sins?

The power to turn from those sins can only occur once we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. That happens at the moment of justification.

I am not understanding how a person can come to the understanding he is lost (because of his sin) separated from God (because of his sin), see his sins as God sees them, and not want to turn from them, and place his trust and faith in Jesus to save him?

The life long event is the sanctification process we go through after we are saved, as we become more like Jesus as we grow.

There is a difference in wanting to turn from sin and actually being able to do it. I don't know about you, but when I was saved my eyes were opened to the truth of my condition, where that condition was sending me, and the only way to be made right in God's eye. I didn't formulate a plan at that time on how to surrender my life to Christ or how I was going to turn from my sins...I was like Peter sinking crying out to Christ "Lord, SAVE ME".

 

[Steven2006]

I can't separate the two, I see them going hand in hand.

 

[DHK]

Its rather a simple consept DHK. 3 Different Authors (or at least 2 because we don't know the Authorship of Hebrews) Discuss Faith in relationship to Justification, Righteousness, and salvation. Each Author applies a differing date to which Justification/Righteousness is applied to Abraham. One say it was when He believed God regarding making a nation, another claims it is when he chose to leave to a "land that I will show you". and thirdly one states its when he trusted God to sacrifice his son. If Justification is a one time event then why are there three differing dates affecting it?

And yet there remains only one truth:

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--This happens only once in a person's life. The Bible makes that very clear, even using Abraham as an example.
Your problem is with the word "believe." I believe God every day. I believe that he works in my life. I believe he answers prayer. I believe that he guides me. I believe that he helps me make decisions. Every day I believe God. But that does not mean I am justified every day. Justification is a one-time event. It happens but one time in a person's life as Romans 5:1 indicates. It happens at the point of salvation. Then the Christian life is a life of believing or trusting Christ.

Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness sake. That is what the Bible says. Where did that happen. Presumably in the Ur of Chaldees as God then began to lead him to a land which he knew not of. From that point on "he kept on believing God." Not for salvation, but for sanctification. His offering of Isaac had nothing to do with salvation but was a demonstration of the great faith that he had in God.

Note I didn't refer to that verse I refered to James 2:21-24 And in this verse it adds another aspect to faith - works which you reject.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

However, the author obviously makes the same claim that Abraham was justified or righteous when his faith resonded in works by sacrificing Isaac. So you see I didn't take it out of context. Do you want me to quote the whole chapter you will find James discourse is that faith is not complete without works. As in this passage earlier on.

No the works was a result of his faith, his faith that had already justified him. But that is another subject.

 

[webdog]

I can't separate the two, I see them going hand in hand.

Turning from sin is not faith, it is a work. If they go hand in hand, salvation is by grace through faith and works. That is the line that is blurred in modern christendom due partly to Lordship Salvation and people like John MacArthur that teach one must commit to turn from sin in exchange for salvation (his words).

 

[Steven2006]

Turning from sin is not faith, it is a work. If they go hand in hand, salvation is by grace through faith and works. That is the line that is blurred in modern christendom due partly to Lordship Salvation and people like John MacArthur that teach one must commit to turn from sin in exchange for salvation (his words).

Recognising ones sin, and wanting to turn from them to Christ is not a work.

How can you recognise your sin and not want to turn from them, that is what I don't understand?

Exchange is not my word, don't put MacArthur's words in mine.

 

[DHK]

Recognising ones sin, and wanting to turn from them to Christ is not a work.

How can you recognise your sin and not want to turn from them, that is what I don't understand?

Repenting from your sins????
When did you get saved? At what age?
At that point did you remember every sin that you ever committed?
Did you list them all to God, confess every one of them, and then repent of them all?
Repent of all your sins is not a Biblical term found in the Bible.
It is impossible to do.

 

[Steven2006]

Repenting from your sins????
When did you get saved? At what age?
At that point did you remember every sin that you ever committed?
Did you list them all to God, confess every one of them, and then repent of them all?
Repent of all your sins is not a Biblical term found in the Bible.
It is impossible to do.

Of course not, don't be silly. My sins would be my sinful ways, my sinful life, my sinfulness. How did you recognize you were a sinner and not want to turn from them? Did you still love and embrace your sin at that moment?

 

[DHK]

Of course not, don't be silly. My sins would be my sinful ways, my sinful life, my sinfulness. How did you recognize you were a sinner and not want to turn from them? Did you still love and embrace your sin at that moment?

Perhaps that is what Webdog is getting at.
Repentance is the flip side of faith. It is a turning away from a sinful and rebellious attitude toward God and a turning to a submissive and obedient attitude toward God. I was once in rebellion toward God; now I am in obedience toward God. That is what happens when I put my faith in Christ, my Lord. In that sense there is no work involved.

"Repenting" of one's sins, as the term is commonly used, confessing your sins, feeling sorry for them, asking forgiveness for them, etc., is a work, as Webdog has pointed out. That is a work which is necessary after salvation. But in reference to salvation that is not what repentance is.

 

[Steven2006]

Perhaps that is what Webdog is getting at.
Repentance is the flip side of faith. It is a turning away from a sinful and rebellious attitude toward God and a turning to a submissive and obedient attitude toward God. I was once in rebellion toward God; now I am in obedience toward God. That is what happens when I put my faith in Christ, my Lord. In that sense there is no work involved.

"Repenting" of one's sins, as the term is commonly used, confessing your sins, feeling sorry for them, asking forgiveness for them, etc., is a work, as Webdog has pointed out. That is a work which is necessary after salvation. But in reference to salvation that is not what repentance is.

I think we agree, and I agree with your phrasing above.

This is what I took exception to, which doesn't sound the same as you are saying.

"I know many say we must turn from our sins in order to receive salvation, but that is not the biblical definition of repentance, it is turning to Christ for salvation."

 

[chadman]

I don't think I got the answer to my very simple question. Can a saved person be Biblically 'accursed'.

Dr. Walter?

 

[Dr. Walter]

If you are confused about time, that is your problem. Abraham believed God. He believed God when God called him out of Ur of Chaldees. He continued to believe in each other place where God led him. That is the nature of the Christian life. When he first believed it was imputed unto him for righteousness sake. There is nothing difficult about that concept.

Whether it is one verse or one chapter, taking it out of context is the same. You take James 1:21,24 out of context--both of the context of the chapter and of the book. You have done the same thing that I did. You cannot see the forest for the trees. You are blind to what you are doing. If you don't know the context how can you rightly divide the word of truth?

In Genesis 15:6 Moses uses the Perfect tense thus taking the reader back to a previous point in time where a completed action occcurred and that action stands completed up to the present point in Genesis 15:6. In other words, in Gen. 15:6 he continued in that faith which had been initiated and completed at an earlier point.

And he believed [perfect tense - he had already believed and still believed] in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

In Genesis 12:1 Moses also uses the Perfect tense demonstrating God told him to get out of "thy country" at an earlier period found in Genesis 11.

Now the LORD had said [perfect tense]unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Paul pinpoints the precise point in Galatians 3:8 which refers to Genesis 12:6 where the perfect tense places it in Genesis 11. Hence, both Romans 4:3 and Galatians 3:8 pinpoint it in Genesis 11.

The point is that justifying faith in the gospel occurred at a specific point in time as a completed action that continued as a completed state or condition of faith thereon out in Genesis 15, 22 and thereon.

Abraham did not become REJUSTIFIED in Genesis 12 and then again in Genesis 15 and then again in Genesis 22. He was justified before God once and it was a completed action and stands completed right up to Genesis 12, Genesis 15, and Genesis 22.

Paul confirms that justification by faith is a completed action in the life of Abraham PRIOR TO circumcision rather than an incompleted progressive action (Rom. 4:12) and then reaffirms it as a PERFECT TENSE action in Romans 5:2 that occurs at specific time in the past as a completed action and continues as a completed state.

Your position requires an INCOMPLETED REPITITIVE or PROGRESSIVE ACTION that is reoccuring in Genesis 11, Genesis 12, Genesis 15 and Genesis 22. The perfect tense in the Old Testament Hebrew and in the New Testament Greek deny such an idea. When Abraham embraced the gospel by faith (Gal. 3:6-8) it was a perfected action and continued as a completed action and it was by that same faith he continued to obey God. There was no repetitive justifications.

 

[DHK]

Your position requires an INCOMPLETED REPITITIVE or PROGRESSIVE ACTION that is reoccuring in Genesis 11, Genesis 12, Genesis 15 and Genesis 22. The perfect tense in the Old Testament Hebrew and in the New Testament Greek deny such an idea. When Abraham embraced the gospel by faith (Gal. 3:6-8) it was a perfected action and continued as a completed action and it was by that same faith he continued to obey God. There was no repetitive justifications.

Then you misunderstood my post.
He believed (was justified) when he was in the Ur of Chaldees. Justification can only take place but one time in a person's life. That is what is referred to in Romans 4. Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness sake.

All other subsequent acts of "believing" are those acts of what we would call the Christian life, our daily walk with Christ, or even our sanctification. Justification takes place only once--at the time of salvation--which in the live of Abraham I believe took place while he still lived in Ur.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Then you misunderstood my post.
He believed (was justified) when he was in the Ur of Chaldees. Justification can only take place but one time in a person's life. That is what is referred to in Romans 4. Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness sake.

All other subsequent acts of "believing" are those acts of what we would call the Christian life, our daily walk with Christ, or even our sanctification. Justification takes place only once--at the time of salvation--which in the live of Abraham I believe took place while he still lived in Ur.

Right! That is exactly what I am saying. It was a completed ONE TIME COMPLETED ACTION in the Ur of the Chalidees when he was preached the gospel and it stands completed right from Genesis 11 to 12, 15, 22. There is no repititous rejustifications in Genesis 12, 15,22 but simple progressive sanctification by faith.

BTW I was replying to TS post. I think you believed I was responding to your post.

 

[webdog]

I think we agree, and I agree with your phrasing above.

This is what I took exception to, which doesn't sound the same as you are saying.

I probably should have added "committing sins" in my phrase. DHK summed up what I meant pretty well.

 

[Steven2006]

I probably should have added "committing sins" in my phrase.

Yes, adding that changes the meaning of what you wrote completely, and I wouldn't have disagreed if you had worded it that way.

DHK summed up what I meant pretty well.

That was really all I was trying to say all along.

 

[Max Kennedy]

Jeff has nothing more to do than to trust in Jesus Christ as his Savior. There is nothing more for ANY of us to do than that. God calls us, we respond. What comes after that is a result of the new life. A child breathes, eats, grows, learns, progresses and matures BECAUSE of his new life, not to earn his life.

Putting your faith in Jesus indicates that God already gave you the faith, so this is a bit backward. (note this isn't specifically responding to this message, but thread in general).

My tentative belief after studying arguments over this online over the last few weeks is men *are* putting it backwards, but perhaps because they don't really remember how they were saved.

Ephasians says the faith is from God. I submit to you that all the arguments you hear on this is exactly what Paul calls boasting, and if you really take these verses to heart - that all the argumentation is over how to have faith and whether we've had enough; is boasting, and a sensative issue with people on whether we are really saved or not (especially if we look back on our own salvation and try to remember it all). Which is just a free gift of God including the faith. If faith is from God, where is the argument on whether "we" are doing it right, did it right, etc? Its a free gift from God.

Faith expressed in the believer is a sign God saved you, not the other way around.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And yet there remains only one truth:

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--This happens only once in a person's life. The Bible makes that very clear, even using Abraham as an example.
Your problem is with the word "believe." I believe God every day. I believe that he works in my life. I believe he answers prayer. I believe that he guides me. I believe that he helps me make decisions. Every day I believe God. But that does not mean I am justified every day. Justification is a one-time event. It happens but one time in a person's life as Romans 5:1 indicates. It happens at the point of salvation. Then the Christian life is a life of believing or trusting Christ.

Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness sake. That is what the Bible says. Where did that happen. Presumably in the Ur of Chaldees as God then began to lead him to a land which he knew not of. From that point on "he kept on believing God." Not for salvation, but for sanctification. His offering of Isaac had nothing to do with salvation but was a demonstration of the great faith that he had in God.

You still haven't answered the question. Which time? If Justification is a one time even and Abraham was considered to be justified each time He believed then you have an issue of which time. If he's justified each time he believed then you have an issue over how you understand justification. What would have happened if Abraham refused to believe God in each subsequent event?

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

No the works was a result of his faith, his faith that had already justified him. But that is another subject.

And you try to answer James by quoting from another book and another author rather than understanding James in the context of his own work. Its not the same thing.