What does ETERNAL mean?

[Steven2006]

aiōnios

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

2) without beginning

3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


In 1 John 5:13 #3 would best apply.

 

[Amy.G]

aiōnios

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

2) without beginning

3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


In 1 John 5:13 #3 would best apply.

So, why do think HP and Bob Ryan believe that your salvation is not really eternal, but only temporary (if you mess up, that is)?

 

[Steven2006]

I have no idea.

This has always been what God's word has proclaimed.



And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2


owlam

1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

a) ancient time, long time (of past)

b) (of future)

1) for ever, always

2) continuous existence, perpetual

3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity


.

 

[Amy.G]

I have no idea.

Me either. That's what this thread is about. Both HP and Bob refuse to define "eternal life".

 

[webdog]

HP: Your free will is no free will at all. If ones eternal destiny is chosen by God, and once chosen cannot be revoked, you have accepted a necessitated theology of which free will is an absolute chimera.

Are you implying if God requires obedience for eternal life, you comply, and He chooses you for eternal life you no longer have free will at that point

I've said this before, but if I kill someone of my own free will, can their death be undone, and does the fact they are now dead mean I never had the free will to kill them?

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP, the question is: What does eternal mean?


Can you answer that?

Howdy Sister Amy! Well how about a definition from the Master Himself...... John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." And what are the results of having Eternal Life? And they shall never perish! Also Jesus warned about an eternal sin where there is no forgivness in this age or the age to come. Why? Because it's an ETERNAL sin.

 

[Amy.G]

Howdy Jedi! :wavey:

You gave an excellent definition straight from the Master!

Now if we could just get HP and Bob to believe it! :thumbsup:


Speaking of which, why haven't they responded?

 

[ccrobinson]

Speaking of which, why haven't they responded?

To use Bob's favorite word, it's because the definition of the word eternal is devastating to their argument that Christians can lose their salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

When Calvinists play the 1John 5 game being played here - with Arminians they choose to go some place like John 3:16

"God so Loved the WORLD that He GAVE.."

The Calvinist then holds the Arminian's feet to the fire saying "do you believe WORLD means the WHOLE WORLD"?

And the Arminian says "yes of course - so stop redefining WORLD down to something that limited atonement will accept".

To which the Calvinist responds -- "yes but it is not LOVING to burn people in hell - so you must be a universalist"

And of course the Arminian responds with -- "God so Loved the World" is the promise for all - but as we see from the rest of the scripture ALL do not choose to accept that promise and so ALL are not saved.

But IF ALL we had was John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD" - and nothing else from scripture - we might have a basis for universalism. However it is the rest of scripture that shows the LIMITS as to just why universalism is not taught in scripture.

---

I have repeated that SAME solution for the way that Romans 11 shows a LIMIT and a warning just as does Matt 18 and just as does John 15 with branches "in Me" that Christ said are "removed and cast into the fire".

HOWEVER - if we ONLY had 1John 5 as our text -- and could simply ignore all the limit and all the boundary texts for the saints -- such as Romans 11, Matt 18, John 15 etc -- then there might actually be a case for OSAS.

It is just then - that the Arminians who also fall for OSAS want to pretend they no longer remember the lesson learned from Calvinist getting them with John 3:16.

How "instructive".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1 John 5:1-3 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
--Let's not omit verse one to keep things in context.
He is writing to those that are believers, those that are born again. This does not come by baptism, but by faith and faith alone. Those that believe in Christ are born again. There is the topic of this chapter. Now what are some of the evidences before us. What are the fruit of a born again child of God?

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
.

So then "they stand ONLY by their faith" - as long as they BELIEVE and LOVES - and everyone that follows in obedience shows that they LOVE God.

Thus all the warning texts on perseverance such as Romans 11, and Matt 18, and Romans 2:6-13 and John 15:1-7 apply and are indeed fulfilled IF that 1John 5 person with eternal life - is also the person that continues to "Believe" and thus to "keep his commandments" - because as Christ said in John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

And as 1John 15:2 affirms that is exactly what those with eternal life are doing.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

And as 1John 15:2 affirms that is exactly what those with eternal life are doing.

in Christ,

Bob

You have done everything but provide a simple answer.
The thread title is What does ETERNAL mean?
Can you simply answer the question posed in the title of the OP?

How long is "eternal"?
When does eternal stop being eternal?
If eternal stops at any time, then is Christ a liar who gave it as a gift (Eph.2:8,9; Rom.6:23)?

 

[BobRyan]

DHK -- bold text and underline -- that is a great idea.

Here it is "again".

When Calvinists play the 1John 5 game being played here - with Arminians they choose to go some place like John 3:16

"God so Loved the WORLD that He GAVE.."

The Calvinist then holds the Arminian's feet to the fire saying "do you believe WORLD means the WHOLE WORLD"?

And the Arminian says "yes of course - so stop redefining WORLD down to something that limited atonement will accept".

To which the Calvinist responds -- "yes but it is not LOVING to burn people in hell - so you must be a universalist"

And of course the Arminian responds with -- "God so Loved the World" is the promise for all - but as we see from the rest of the scripture ALL do not choose to accept that promise and so ALL are not saved.

But IF ALL we had was John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD" - and nothing else from scripture - we might have a basis for universalism. However it is the rest of scripture that shows the LIMITS as to just why universalism is not taught in scripture.

---

I have repeated that SAME solution for the way that Romans 11 shows a LIMIT and a warning just as does Matt 18 and just as does John 15 with branches "in Me" that Christ said are "removed and cast into the fire".

HOWEVER - if we ONLY had 1John 5 as our text -- and could simply ignore all the limit and all the boundary texts for the saints -- such as Romans 11, Matt 18, John 15 etc -- then there might actually be a case for OSAS.

It is just then - that the Arminians who also fall for OSAS want to pretend they no longer remember the lesson learned from Calvinist getting them with John 3:16.

How "instructive".

 

[BobRyan]

from: http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1512732&postcount=236

1John 5 -- Eternal life begins with the New Birth. The Work of the Holy Spirit at the point the sinner chooses to accept Christ -- is to "create" the new Creation of 2Cor 5. The sinner receives full forgiveness of sins and is grafted into the "vine" of John 15.

(this is the part where all agree - I would imagine)

But the Gospel is not the promise of being OSAS in a forgiveness revoked state.

So the lesson of Matt 18 on forgiveness revoked - is the lesson that proves that OSAS is simply man made tradition.

The Gospel is not the promise of being severed from Christ and fallen from Grace -- so the warning of Gal 5:4 is the lesson of scripture showing us that OSAS is nothing more than man made tradition.

The Gospel is not the promise of being removed from the body of Christ "for unbelief" - so the very real warning in Rom 11 given to believing Gentiles of the whom the text explicitly says were "grafted IN" to the body of Christ -- is a real warning that proves that OSAS is nothing more than man made tradition.

I suppose we could keep going with these examples - but we already have far more than some of our OSAS friends are willing to study as it is.

While some of our OSAS friends study on how to answer my "1John 5 Eternal Life" post above --

How about this one?

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1512390&postcount=225

How necessary is "forgiveness for sins" in your view of OSAS? (hint - Matt 18 shows how forgiveness if revoked).

How necessary is "Christ" in your view of OSAS (note John 15:1-6 shows how branches that are "IN CHRIST" are removed from Him - killed and then burned.

How necessary is "the body of Christ" in your view of OSAS (note Romans 11 shows how both natural branches (Jews) and the wild branches (Gentiles) are IN the body of Christ - but some of the natural branches (Jews) were "removed for unbelief" -- but as Paul says "HE is able to graft them in AGAIN IF THEY do not continue in unbelief"

How necessary is "Grace" and being in fellowship with Christ - in your view of OSAS? In Gal 5:4 we see the case of those who fave "FALLEN FROM Grace and have been SEVERED FROM Christ".

If you have a Christless, lifeless, Graceless, not-forgiven, not-part-of-the-body-of-Christ version of OSAS -- so that you can claim that OSAS remains in all of those Bible conditions that the NT warns us about -- then you have an OSAS that includes "being lost".

 

[BobRyan]

1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
4For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.
5Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7For there are three that testify:
8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son.
10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

• Whoever “believes that Jesus is the Christ” is born of God. Not “whoever used to believe it”. Vs 1
• “Whatever IS born of God overcomes the world” – not “Whatever is born of God USED to overcome the world” – vs 4
• The one who overcomes the world – Believes that Jesus is the Son of God – not “used to believe” and not “used to overcome”. – vs 5
• The one who believes in the Son of God has this testimony – vs 10
  • Not “whoever used to believe – still has this testimony”
• He who HAS the Son – has the Life vs 12– not “He who USED to be IN Christ but is now removed from Christ and cast in to the fire – still HAS life” vs 12

 

[Amy.G]

1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
4For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.
5Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7For there are three that testify:
8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son.
10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

• Whoever “believes that Jesus is the Christ” is born of God. Not “whoever used to believe it”. Vs 1
• “Whatever IS born of God overcomes the world” – not “Whatever is born of God USED to overcome the world” – vs 4
• The one who overcomes the world – Believes that Jesus is the Son of God – not “used to believe” and not “used to overcome”. – vs 5
• The one who believes in the Son of God has this testimony – vs 10
  • Not “whoever used to believe – still has this testimony”
• He who HAS the Son – has the Life vs 12– not “He who USED to be IN Christ but is now removed from Christ and cast in to the fire – still HAS life” vs 12

Is there an answer to my question in there somewhere? If so, I don't see it.

How long is eternal?

Let me give you a hint. The Greek word for eternal means......eternal. :laugh:


So, if Jesus promises eternal life upon your faith in Him, how does it become temporary? Surely you don't doubt the promise of God.

 

[BobRyan]

"God so Loved the WORLD that He GAVE.."

The Calvinist then holds the Arminian's feet to the fire saying "do you believe WORLD means the WHOLE WORLD"?

And the Arminian says "yes of course - so stop redefining WORLD down to something that limited atonement will accept".

To which the Calvinist responds -- "yes but it is not LOVING to burn people in hell - so you must be a universalist"

Apparently - that game never gets old for those in the OSAS camp!

 

[Agnus_Dei]

The notion that one is already saved...and that one can know this absolutely and positively without taking into consideration where one's life may lead one in the future...has always struck me as a bit odd. If one is already saved, then what need does one still have for a Savior?

Is this not like saying that one who has been completely cured of cancer is still in need of chemo-therapy? Or is this not like saying that one who has been cured of cancer will never find the disease surfacing again, perhaps years later? In the Gospels Christ says, "I come not to save the righteous, but the sinner," and He goes on to make this very comparison with the individual who is physically ill as the one who needs a physician, rather than the one who is in perfect physical health.

Salvation, for Orthodox Christians, is seen as deliverance from the curse of sin and death, which makes it possible for us to enter into union with God through Christ the Savior. Salvation includes a process of growth of the whole person whereby the sinner is transformed into the image and likeness of God. One is saved by faith through grace, although saving faith involves more than belief. Faith must be active and living, manifested by works of righteousness, whereby we cooperate with God to do His will. Hence, if one is "being saved," one is on the way to one's ultimate goal: eternal union with God and participation in the divine nature, as Saint Paul writes.

So the essential question is, "If I have already been saved, then what more can the Savior do for me?" Another question that comes out of these considerations is, "If 'once saved, always saved' is the maxim, would this imply that if I go on to lead an extremely evil life it ultimately does not matter since I have already been saved?" When one acknowledges, as the Orthodox Faith teaches, that we are "being saved," such considerations do not arise.

In XC
-

 

[BobRyan]

The notion that one is already saved...and that one can know this absolutely and positively without taking into consideration where one's life may lead one in the future...has always struck me as a bit odd. If one is already saved, then what need does one still have for a Savior?

The Bible term "saved" means "born again".

It means that you have experienced the 2Cor 5 "new Creation" for "if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation old things have passed away - all things have become new".

It means that you are justified by faith "having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God" Romans 5:1.

But as you point out - it does not predict that in the future you will choose to "persevere" in that condition.

Thus all the Bible warnings about what happens if you do not continue to choose to persevere as a saved saint.

Salvation, for Orthodox Christians, is seen as deliverance from the curse of sin and death, which makes it possible for us to enter into union with God through Christ the Savior. Salvation includes a process of growth of the whole person whereby the sinner is transformed into the image and likeness of God. One is saved by faith through grace, although saving faith involves more than belief. Faith must be active and living, manifested by works of righteousness, whereby we cooperate with God to do His will.

Exactly! :thumbs:

So the essential question is, "If I have already been saved, then what more can the Savior do for me?" Another question that comes out of these considerations is, "If 'once saved, always saved' is the maxim, would this imply that if I go on to lead an extremely evil life it ultimately does not matter since I have already been saved?"

The 4 point Calvinists teach that very thing - by denying the Romans 2:6 doctrine on perseverance of the saints.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Amy.G]

Apparently - that game never gets old for those in the OSAS camp!

What on earth does this post have to do with the question being asked?


You can't answer because you know eternal means eternal and it would destroy your false doctrine.



And HP hasn't made a peep. Very telling.

 

[Amy.G]

If one is already saved, then what need does one still have for a Savior?

That's kind of like saying "now that I'm married what need do I have for a wife"?


If you've been saved, you have no need to be saved again. If you've been saved, you have the Savior for all eternity. Once you've been saved, it's not about being saved, for you already are. It's about your relationship with your Savior.