What Does Repent Mean?

[JonC]

JonC



My view is that we are not to despise gifts God has given to the church. Pastors/teachers are men....not infallible but are used by God to help us. which post spoke of that ? i would like to double check.
I have met several of the men I post links from, or sermons from.
They are the real deal and not superficial as some are online.
The links are designed to get at truth, not the men that offer the teaching, but the truth about Jesus.

I do not believe that God has decreed any of those commentators to be our teachers (we are free to question the conclusions of people like Pink, Calvin, Wesley, Clarke, etc. without becoming unorthodox, heterodox, or any of the other things I’ve been called these past couple of weeks). No commentator has cornered the truth (Reformed Baptists of all people should realize this). But yes, we don't despise the gifts that these men have exercised. At the same time, we don't accept their teachings as God breathed. We can say that God gifted these teachers with the ability to teach, but it is a heresy to say that he ordained their teachings to be accurate and unquestionable.

 

[Iconoclast]

I do not believe that God has decreed any of those commentators to be our teachers (we are free to question the conclusions of people like Pink, Calvin, Wesley, Clarke, etc. without becoming unorthodox, heterodox, or any of the other things I’ve been called these past couple of weeks). No commentator has cornered the truth (Reformed Baptists of all people should realize this). But yes, we don't despise the gifts that these men have exercised. At the same time, we don't accept their teachings as God breathed. We can say that God gifted these teachers with the ability to teach, but it is a heresy to say that he ordained their teachings to be accurate and unquestionable.

Where did I say that?
Could you post that for me?
Where did you see me say anything close to that?

 

[JonC]

Where did I say that?
Could you post that for me?
Where did you see me say anything close to that?

I am not saying that this is your belief. IT said that, not you (post #189). His next post was defending you against my grandstanding and personal attacks (#190). It is difficult when people speak for each other sometimes to know when one ends and the other begins. But here I was explaining my objection to what was stated (not necessarily that you stated it). I'm explaining to you that I do not despise these teachers or their views just because I reject the idea that their teachings are decreed by God for the Church.

 

[Internet Theologian]

I certainly do believe God has decreed these godly men to be our teachers. Why else would He gift them, and then give these to the church? Note again Eph, 4:11ff. Also those who labor in the Word are worthy of double honor; 1 Timothy 5:17.

What I am seeing from jonc is subtle contempt for these that God has gifted. Then the other extreme charge is laid upon some others in this thread which I will expand upon.

No one thinks anyone has cornered the market. No one believes these men preach 'God breathed' doctrine. No one here is teaching they are to go on unquestioned.

What I do take issue with is jonc saying 'but it is heresy to say He ordained their teachings to be accurate...' That is a sad statement and shows contempt for teachers and I have taken note of this attitude. Certainly these men of God have been accurate on much teaching, it is God leading them into truth as promised by application to the church. There are good godly men who have provided sound doctrine, or we would not have 2 Timothy 4 showing both sides, sound doctrine and myths if the former did not exist. There would be no need for 2 Timothy 2:15 because God didn't decree teachings to be accurate.

It is all then to be arbitrary and there is no accuracy to be expected. Or, let's delve off into the emerging church attitude that we can know nothing.

Perhaps jonc you should say when you get ready to teach that God hasn't decreed you to be accurate that it is all haphazard so what you will teach will be most likely erroneous because it isn't in God's plan.

Or maybe you should practice this on here as well, that all your arguments have no accuracy whatsoever, it isn't in God's plan for you to be that, the same charge you lay on others lay on you as well. Therefore there need be no rebuttals from you, or from others, or myself. None are accurate we are just making arbitrary speculations...

And why get angry when ones teaching of man's ability is questioned. Who are you to say that one side is inaccurate when this isn't God's plan? Why attack one side or the other? It is nonsensical to do so.

Frankly I see your argument I just noted as irrational and a cop out. I am certain you deem your own teaching to be accurate and it appears that you hold the teachings of others in disrepute and contempt. In fact you do.

You said, by the way you want 'to own' your own teachings and conclusions (while belittling seeking others on Scripture) and it was in the context of YOU coming to accurate conclusions on your own.

 

[Internet Theologian]

What is it exactly that you disagree with jonc and consider 'dumb'? I see this constant reaction of yours as quite childish to be honest. I went off your belief system, off what you teach.

Is that what bothers you?

Or was it alluding to Scripture as evidence to honor these men and that it points to the ability for these gifted men to be accurate by implication?

 

[Internet Theologian]

I am not saying that this is your belief. IT said that, not you (post #189).

I never made any such claim. Show us all where I made such a claim as you accuse. Here is my post:

When responding to jonc it must be noted that he holds himself above all others and implies others only 'regurgitate' their beliefs on the forum. Others get their teachings from books, he gets his from pure Scripture, and so it goes.

Those whom God has decreed as teachers (Eph. 4:11) he shows contempt for if others seek their wisdom and insight. But Scripture gives us this; Proverbs 11:14 and Psalm 1 along with many other Scriptures concerning the safety and wisdom of consulting others and walking in their counsel.

Good godly men should be sought as they are a good check and balance and a good aid to our understanding, but doing so is only placing ones self above Scripture according to the doctrines and implications of jonc.

Others works are to be avoided, his comments are to be read. Others have destroyed churches with their bad doctrine according to jonc (orthodox teachers included) but not jonc's teachings. This whole attitude of his is akin to Diotrophes and Paul's warning of such in Acts 20:28 is also similar. Follow them. Be their disciple. Avoid the teachings of 'others'.

Offer Scripture in a rebuttal to him, he offers one with absolutely no Scripture whatsoever while saying to the one to whom he is responding that they hold themselves above Scripture.

Note more here: https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/when-did-christ-embrace-sonship.97613/page-2#post-2196138

These types of persons are to be avoided.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Here is what the issue is that Iconoclast asked 'where he said that'.

jonc said this ' At the same time, we don't accept their teachings as God breathed. We can say that God gifted these teachers with the ability to teach, but it is a heresy to say that he ordained their teachings to be accurate and unquestionable.'

To that Iconoclast and myself both responded. None of us ever said this nor implied it. It was actually unnecessary to say it. No one here made this alleged 'heretical' statment.

I do however hold that jonc does show contempt for teachers by what he stated. I made this argument in post #213. This is not the only place jonc has criticizized the teachings of others and those who employ their works. Perhaps we should remember that we are talking of God's gifted servants, of brothers in Christ as well.

There is a need to thoroughly consider the charge that God hasn't decreed their teachings to be accurate. To say this then we all must also take such a charge and apply it to ourselves. I am certain jonc that you do not deem your teachings to be inaccurate and that you see God as equipping you to make accurate conclusions. But this is what you typically charge other teachers with and I see it as a cop out.

I made a fair point in #213. Going around making these points dumb isn't cool or appropriate.

 

[JonC]

I certainly do believe God has decreed these godly men to be our teachers. Why else would He gift them, and then give these to the church?.....What I do take issue with is jonc saying 'but it is heresy to say He ordained their teachings to be accurate...' That is a sad statement and shows contempt for teachers and I have taken note of this attitude. Certainly these men of God have been accurate on much teaching, it is God leading them into truth as promised by application to the church. There are good godly men who have provided sound doctrine, or we would not have 2 Timothy 4 showing both sides, sound doctrine and myths if the former did not exist. There would be no need for 2 Timothy 2:15 because God didn't decree teachings to be accurate.

Do you mean people like Augustine, Clement, Grotius, McCall, D.L. Moody, John Wesley, Clarke, Feinberg, John Piper, J.I. Packer, N.T. Wright, Carson, Erickson, Enns, Morris, McGrath…..no, of course not, you do not agree with these guys on all of their teachings (and they disagree with each other). What you mean is that you have found a few authors with whom you agree, therefore their doctrine is decreed by God for the Church. The crux of their ordination is that they agree with your view. And anyone who disagrees is a heretic. Please give us a list of these teachers that God has ordained for the Church.

 

[JonC]

Here is what the issue is that Iconoclast asked 'where he said that'.

jonc said this ' At the same time, we don't accept their teachings as God breathed. We can say that God gifted these teachers with the ability to teach, but it is a heresy to say that he ordained their teachings to be accurate and unquestionable.'

To that Iconoclast and myself both responded. None of us ever said this nor implied it. It was actually unnecessary to say it. No one here made this alleged 'heretical' statment.

I do however hold that jonc does show contempt for teachers by what he stated. I made this argument in post #213. This is not the only place jonc has criticizized the teachings of others and those who employ their works. Perhaps we should remember that we are talking of God's gifted servants, of brothers in Christ as well.

There is a need to thoroughly consider the charge that God hasn't decreed their teachings to be accurate. To say this then we all must also take such a charge and apply it to ourselves. I am certain jonc that you do not deem your teachings to be inaccurate and that you see God as equipping you to make accurate conclusions. But this is what you typically charge other teachers with and I see it as a cop out.

I made a fair point in #213. Going around making these points dumb isn't cool or appropriate.

Exactly which teachers are you contending that I hold in contempt? You as well, Icon....which of these God decreed teachers for the Church have I held in contempt? Please give me a list of those who are ordained by God as teachers for the Church and decreed with accurate doctrine.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Exactly which teachers are you contending that I hold in contempt? You as well, Icon....which of these God decreed teachers for the Church have I held in contempt? Please give me a list of those who are actually decreed as teachers for the Church.

All the others mentioned. You're the one broad brushing.

By the way I don't appreciate your false accusations on me in post 189. I never made such a statement as you charged. This isn't the first time you've shown disdain for other teachers. You've done it elsewhere. You've done it to Martin Marprelate in a thread. You do this on the web in general.

 

[JonC]

All the others mentioned. You're the one broad brushing.

By the way I don't appreciate your false accusations on me in post 189. I never made such a statement as you charged. This isn't the first time you've shown disdain for other teachers. You've done it elsewhere. You've done it to Martin Marprelate in a thread. You do this on the web in general.

As the old saying goes....put up or shut up. Who are these saints? How are they chosen? Who picks which of their teachings are accurate....or are all of their doctrines accurate as God decreed them as the teachers of the Church? How is this different from having a bunch of popes?

 

[Internet Theologian]

Do you mean people like Augustine, Clement, Grotius, McCall, D.L. Moody, John Wesley, Clarke, Feinberg, John Piper, J.I. Packer, N.T. Wright, Carson, Erickson, Enns, Morris, McGrath…..no, of course not, you do not agree with these guys on all of their teachings (and they disagree with each other).

I believe most of these have some good orthodox teachings. Of course there are differing opinions on things. We are the earthen vessel, but for the most part many are accurate on much of what they teach.

What you mean is that you have found a few authors with whom you agree, therefore their doctrine is decreed by God for the Church.

No, I mean no such thing. You're getting out of control and assuming. Take a deep breath and end these belittling jabs. I have already offered my Scriptural apology on what I believe about God ordained men. You labelled that post 'dumb'.

The crux of their ordination is that they agree with your view. And anyone who disagrees is a heretic. Please give us a list of these teachers that God has ordained for the Church.

That is a foolish charge friend and is untrue, but this is what you resort to, this false assumption. That said I do know some teachings which are in fact heretical and go against orthodox teachings. I have named them here and there on this board. One is the antinomianism in one increasingly popular theological view.

You always assume that the Reformed have some group of anointed ones to whom these only inquire. You charge the Reformed of only getting their teachings from books, not from Scripture, and only from other Reformed. This is not true but maybe you simply enjoy believing it.

At the same time you appoint yourself as getting your teaching direct from the Scriptures. It's a pattern of yours and an agenda. I get it, you hold contempt for the Reformed brethren and you lay this charge upon them often.

 

[Internet Theologian]

As the old saying goes....put up or shut up. Who are these saints? How are they chosen? Who picks which of their teachings are accurate....or are all of their doctrines accurate as God decreed them as the teachers of the Church? How is this different from having a bunch of popes?

I wish you were here to tell me to 'shut up'. I apologize that you cannot discern which teachers are true and which are not so according to the call and mandate to do so.

 

[JonC]

I wish you were here to tell me to 'shut up'.

Yes....you and I both....like I indicated - It's a saying. I'd just as soon you "put up" (aka, defend your statements). You haven't heard that before? I told you, I don't wear my feelings on my sleeve but I do believe in accountability.

Can you not just defend your statements? Just list a few of those “mentioned” so that I can see how I held them in contempt. I am certain I disagree with some teachers. I disagree with Origen in that I refute a payment made to Satan…..I disagree with Calvin on infant baptism…..I disagree with Luther on the nature of the Lord’s Supper…..and with Augustine on baptism…..And Aquinas on divine penance…and with MacArthur on the interpretation of “world”…. Maybe with Piper on double predestination (I'm still out on that one).....And with Wesley on human free-will…..and with Evan on posting rabbit pictures….and with Sproul on his view of Limited Atonement....but the only one I have held in contempt is you.

Have you been grandstanding all this time? Can you really not defend your statements? This was all sparked by you saying I believed men and women became gods. Can you defend that? While you're at it, can you list a few of these teachers that I hold in contempt?

 

[Internet Theologian]

Here let me answer this again one more time:

Exactly which teachers are you contending that I hold in contempt? You as well, Icon....which of these God decreed teachers for the Church have I held in contempt? Please give me a list of those who are ordained by God as teachers for the Church and decreed with accurate doctrine.

Which ones do you hold in contempt? All that others mention.

And this here as you do hold contempt for other teachers to which MM has had enough of that nonsense of YOURS:

By the way I don't appreciate your false accusations on me in post 189. I never made such a statement as you charged. This isn't the first time you've shown disdain for other teachers. You've done it elsewhere. You've done it to Martin Marprelate in a thread. You do this on the web in general.

Put an end to lying about me and your pretense to not have done all this.

 

[JonC]

Here let me answer this again one more time:




Which ones do you hold in contempt? All that others mention.

And this here as you do hold contempt for other teachers to which MM has had enough of that nonsense of YOURS:

By the way I don't appreciate your false accusations on me in post 189. I never made such a statement as you charged. This isn't the first time you've shown disdain for other teachers. You've done it elsewhere. You've done it to Martin Marprelate in a thread. You do this on the web in general.

Put an end to lying about me and your pretense to not have done all this.

I don't hold those in contempt anymore than MM held those who he disagreed with in contempt. MM actually regarded Beeke highly and didn't condemn J.I. Packer either. You are confusing disagreement with contempt, brother.

But while you are at it, how is saying that God has decreed certain teachers for the Church and decreed their teachings accurate any different from submitting to the Church to determine the Word of God? Have you always been Baptist? I detect a hint of RCC….no……maybe a hint of fundamentalism. Were you indoctrinated into a fundamentalist congregation before becoming Reformed? If so, that would explain why you hold to Reformed doctrine but in such an unorthodox manner.

Anyway, give me a list. Who, other than you, have I held in contempt?

 

[Internet Theologian]

Have you been grandstanding all this time?

I don't grandstand. If a mod lies, you lie, others lie I will call them on it. Several of you overlook one of these who is noted for misrepresenting and yes lying. You all make certain to call me out for calling him on his doing these things but you look past him doing it. Maybe you're just timid, I don't know.

This was all sparked by you saying I believed men and women became gods.

I never made that charge on you but you assumed this for some reason. Put an end to that lie. I told you once I never saw any of your posts because you were on ignore which meant I literally never even saw that you were part of the discussion.

By the way, you rushed in to tell me dhk doesn't believe in 'mans ability' which was the bone of contention there and defended him and accused me of being childish, narcissist, along with other name calling. Nice!

Friend I don't need you to tell me what he does or does not believe, OK? He does well enough on his own.

I offered proof he did teach that in another thread as I quoted what he said. Please know what you are talking about before coming in and name calling. Or perhaps just stop name calling? Sometimes you just don't know everything.

Can you defend that? While you're at it, can you list a few of these teachers that I hold in contempt?

As I said it is when others use them that you are known to belittle them and show contempt for them. It's a known fact.

 

[JonC]

I believe most of these have some good orthodox teachings. Of course there are differing opinions on things. We are the earthen vessel, but for the most part many are accurate on much of what they teach.

Wait....so are you now saying that God decreed these teachers for the Church and decreed that their teachings be accurate….for the most part????? Good grief...this isn't even good back peddling.......

 

[JonC]

I don't grandstand. If a mod lies, you lie, others lie I will call them on it. Several of you overlook one of these who is noted for misrepresenting and yes lying. You all make certain to call me out for calling him on his doing these things but you look past him doing it. Maybe you're just timid, I don't know.



I never made that charge on you but you assumed this for some reason. Put an end to that lie. I told you once I never saw any of your posts because you were on ignore which meant I literally never even saw that you were part of the discussion.

By the way, you rushed in to tell me dhk doesn't believe in 'mans ability' which was the bone of contention there and defended him and accused me of being childish, narcissist, along with other name calling. Nice!

Friend I don't need you to tell me what he does or does not believe, OK? He does well enough on his own.

I offered proof he did teach that in another thread as I quoted what he said. Please know what you are talking about before coming in and name calling. Or perhaps just stop name calling? Sometimes you just don't know everything.



As I said it is when others use them that you are known to belittle them and show contempt for them. It's a known fact.

I am still waiting for you to back up your comments. You claim you can....you claim you don't grandstand....you certainly post a lot of words and insults. Here's your chance.

List those teachers towards whom I've showed contempt. List those teachers that God has decreed for the Church and to whom God has decreed accurate teachings.

 

[JonC]

I don't grandstand. If a mod lies, you lie, others lie I will call them on it. Several of you overlook one of these who is noted for misrepresenting and yes lying.

uh...yea, whatever:

Which is the same power that all lost have. None

.Except in your gospel.

I suppose then in your gospel that at a certain age men and women become gods and have a power source within themselves to have supernatural faith and innate ability to spiritually repent. Correct?

I see jon c doulus must also agree that men and women have the same power dhk preaches them to have , so he hands the 'dislike' award lol!

Again, brother, accountability. Please provide me with a list of those teachers whom I regard with contempt. Please provide us a list of those God decreed teachers who hold doctrine that God has decreed accurate.