What does "The Limited Atonement" actually proclaim? What are the Scriptural Proofs?

[Silverhair]

I have given you scripture , cant help it if you dont believe it like I do

So it is not the inspired Word of God you believe but rather what you want the Word of God to mean. So it is not the bible you believe but yourself.

 

[Silverhair]

I have given you whats clear to me.

But what is clear in the bible you deny.

 

[Alan Gross]

Colossians 1:20.

"And, having made Peace through the blood of His cross,
by Him to Reconcile all things unto Himself;
by Him, I say,
whether they be things in Earth, or things in Heaven."

"by Him to Reconcile all things unto Himself;
by Him, I say,
whether they be things in Earth, or things in Heaven,"

by which are not intended the whole universe and fabric of the world,
all creatures and things, animate and inanimate, rational and irrational,
which have been cursed for the sin of man,

that would somehow be, in consequence of Redemption
and Reconciliation by Christ, will,
as some think, in the Time of the Restitution of all things,
be restored to their former state, and their friendly use to mankind;

(Note: Alan doesn't see Jesus' Work on the cross as necessary
to accomplish a renewing and rejuvenating power FOR THE EARTH.

I see The New Heaven and The New Earth as a Creative Act,
no different than the First Creation of Heaven and Earth.....)

Such as here:

Revelation 21:1, . . . And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:
for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; . . ."

"nor are the elect men and elect angels,
and their "Reconciliation" together,
because the Apostle is not speaking
of the Reconciling of elect men and elect angels,
as "all things" together,

"but the Apostle is speaking of
Jesus Reconciling "all things unto Himself"; TO GOD the FATHER.

"Although it is true that all elect men are Reconciled to God, by Jesus,
is not true of the Elect Angels, who never fell.

The Elect Angels have Confirming Grace,
yet not Reconciling Grace from Christ, which they never needed;

Nor is, "by Him to Reconcile all things unto Himself;
by Him, I say,
whether they be things in Earth, or things in Heaven,"

"referring to the Jews and Gentiles,
for though it is true that God was in Christ
Reconciling the world of the Gentiles,
as well as of the Jews to Himself,

"even though the Chosen of God among both
are actually reconciled to God by the death of Christ,

"yet the one (The Jews) are never called "things on Earth",
or the other (The Gentiles) "things in Heaven"

in distinction from, and opposition to each other;
by one said to be, "things on Earth" and the other, "things in Heaven"

"but rather all the Elect of God are here meant,"

when the Word says,
"And, having made Peace through the blood of His cross,
by Him to Reconcile all things unto Himself;
by Him, I say,
whether they be things in Earth or things in Heaven,"

"The Family of God in Heaven and in Earth;

"all the saints that were then in Heaven,

"when actual Reconciliation was made by the blood of Christ,
and Who went thither upon the foot of Peace, Reconciliation,
and Redemption, to be made by His Sacrifice and Death;

"and all the Chosen ones that were
or should be on the face of the Earth,
until The End of Time;

"All these were Reconciled to God by Christ."

 

[Brightfame52]

So it is not the inspired Word of God you believe but rather what you want the Word of God to mean. So it is not the bible you believe but yourself.

I dont believe you believe it.

 

[Brightfame52]

But what is clear in the bible you deny.

No thats you

 

[SavedByGrace]

"If Christ bore the sins of all men without exception,
then all men are justified.

strawman, invalid argument!

this is what the founder of Clavinism, John Calvin, says on John 3:16

“That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life” (emphasis mine)

Note what Calvin says here

"yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life”

ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION!

Could not be any clearer, that Jesus Christ, according to the founder of Calvinism, whose teachings were the basis of the Five Points of Calvinism, did NOT believe in any LIMIT on the Death of Jesus Christ!

Elsewhere Calvin also says:

John 1:29;

“Who taketh away the sin of the world. He uses the word sin in the singular number, for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said, that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that he had been sent to them alone. But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled to him. John the Baptist, therefore, by speaking generally of the sin of the world, intended to impress upon us the conviction of our own misery, and to exhort us to seek the remedy. Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by the guidance of faith.”

Then we have Romans 5:18;

“He makes this favor common to all, because it is propounded to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God's benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him”

Here Calvin clearly says that Christ’s suffering for “the whole world” is “offered…to ALL”, but the “ALL” of the “human race” do not receive this gift from the Lord. Nothing could be plainer of the Universal Atonement as taught by Calvin.

Commenting on Mark 14:24, where Jesus says that His death is a “ransom for many”. Calvin says:

“Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race”

If, as the “Calvinists” teach, that they get their “limited atonement” from John Calvin, then they are clearly deluded! Here is a text that Jesus says that He died for “many”, and yet, you would have expected Calvin to have said, “only for a part”. But in fact, he says that it does not mean this, but Jesus’ words mean, “the whole human race”! I expect there are still those who will hold on to their lies about this doctrine and what Calvin actually taught. The context here includes Judas!

Glory to God for His Wonderful salvation for the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!

 

[Brightfame52]

Limited atonement proclaims the salvific accomplishment of the Person and Work of Christ, it effects Salvation, even conversion back to God, 1 Pet 2:24-25

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Peter writes by Christs stripes, meaning His suffering unto death, brought about healing. The word healed in the greek is iaomai:

1. to cure, heal
   
   
2. to make whole
   
   
   1. to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation
      

Notice it says to free from errors,

That is from

1. belief in something untrue; the holding of mistaken opinions.

See by nature we believe lies and need to be granted repentance to acknowledge and believe the Truth 2 Tim 2:25

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Now if Christ died for us this repentance will be given.

 

[Brightfame52]

strawman, invalid argument!

this is what the founder of Clavinism, John Calvin, says on John 3:16

“That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life” (emphasis mine)

Note what Calvin says here

"yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life”

ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION!

Could not be any clearer, that Jesus Christ, according to the founder of Calvinism, whose teachings were the basis of the Five Points of Calvinism, did NOT believe in any LIMIT on the Death of Jesus Christ!

Elsewhere Calvin also says:

John 1:29;

“Who taketh away the sin of the world. He uses the word sin in the singular number, for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said, that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that he had been sent to them alone. But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled to him. John the Baptist, therefore, by speaking generally of the sin of the world, intended to impress upon us the conviction of our own misery, and to exhort us to seek the remedy. Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by the guidance of faith.”

Then we have Romans 5:18;

“He makes this favor common to all, because it is propounded to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God's benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him”

Here Calvin clearly says that Christ’s suffering for “the whole world” is “offered…to ALL”, but the “ALL” of the “human race” do not receive this gift from the Lord. Nothing could be plainer of the Universal Atonement as taught by Calvin.

Commenting on Mark 14:24, where Jesus says that His death is a “ransom for many”. Calvin says:

“Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race”

If, as the “Calvinists” teach, that they get their “limited atonement” from John Calvin, then they are clearly deluded! Here is a text that Jesus says that He died for “many”, and yet, you would have expected Calvin to have said, “only for a part”. But in fact, he says that it does not mean this, but Jesus’ words mean, “the whole human race”! I expect there are still those who will hold on to their lies about this doctrine and what Calvin actually taught. The context here includes Judas!

Glory to God for His Wonderful salvation for the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!

No its not a strawman Its the Truth, lest you are a proponent of universalism or you deny the saving efficacy of Christs death. Both of those views are apostate.

 

[Silverhair]

I dont believe you believe it.

BF you have failed to provide any clear scripture to support your view. The scripture that I have shown you allows for no wiggle room as to the meaning. What you have posted does not fit that requirement.

Limited atonement proclaims the salvific accomplishment of the Person and Work of Christ, it effects Salvation, even conversion back to God, 1 Pet 2:24-25

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Peter writes by Christs stripes, meaning His suffering unto death, brought about healing. The word healed in the greek is iaomai:

1. 
   
   
   • to cure, heal
   • to make whole
     
     1. to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation

Notice it says to free from errors,

That is from

1. 
   
   
   • belief in something untrue; the holding of mistaken opinions.

See by nature we believe lies and need to be granted repentance to acknowledge and believe the Truth 2 Tim 2:25

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Now if Christ died for us this repentance will be given.

BF you do seem to have a problem understanding context don't you. No one was saved at the cross. Christ is our propitiation, He was the lamb of sacrifice that assuaged the wrath of God for all men.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

As Paul rightly said we must trust in the risen Christ for our salvation.

1Co 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

1Pe 2.24 Peter speaking to fellow believers could rightly say that Christ bore their sins but you have to ignore the rest of the biblical text to conclude that this means only believers had their sins covered. Even from the 1Pe text we can see that they had trusted in the risen Christ, "that we, having died to sins". Did they die to sins when Christ was crucified or when they trusted the gospel message about the risen Christ?

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Your use of 2Ti 2:25 is another example of your ignoring context in the attempt to support your theology.

2Ti 2:24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

The context shows that it is believers that have misunderstood a truth or been mislead by false teachers.Through patient, kind instruction they may be brought back to an understanding of the truth.

You have a habit of ignoring any text that does not fit your theology while at the same time using text as support that in actuality do not do so.

 

[Silverhair]

No its not a strawman Its the Truth, lest you are a proponent of universalism or you deny the saving efficacy of Christs death. Both of those views are apostate.

Christ's death is the propitiation for the sin of the whole world and thus made salvation possible for all but it is only through faith in the risen Christ that one is actually saved.

BF you made this comment "The Elect are legally saved/Justified before God solely by the Blood of Christ before they believe, then they are Spiritually saved by Spirit regeneration before they believe, then following regeneration they become consciously saved by Faith, they embrace and come into the Spiritual knowledge of their Salvation"

So by your own words you have people saved three times prior to faith in the risen Christ. So why did Christ have to die for sin? Why does anyone have to have faith as they are already saved. Remember Christ paid for all humanities sin at the cross. Also no one is elect unless they are in Christ, you are saying people are in Christ prior to faith.
You have made a mockery of the life, death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you have failed to provide any clear scripture to support your view. The scripture that I have shown you allows for no wiggle room as to the meaning. What you have posted does not fit that requirement.


BF you do seem to have a problem understanding context don't you. No one was saved at the cross. Christ is our propitiation, He was the lamb of sacrifice that assuaged the wrath of God for all men.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

As Paul rightly said we must trust in the risen Christ for our salvation.

1Co 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

1Pe 2.24 Peter speaking to fellow believers could rightly say that Christ bore their sins but you have to ignore the rest of the biblical text to conclude that this means only believers had their sins covered. Even from the 1Pe text we can see that they had trusted in the risen Christ, "that we, having died to sins". Did they die to sins when Christ was crucified or when they trusted the gospel message about the risen Christ?

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Your use of 2Ti 2:25 is another example of your ignoring context in the attempt to support your theology.

2Ti 2:24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

The context shows that it is believers that have misunderstood a truth or been mislead by false teachers.Through patient, kind instruction they may be brought back to an understanding of the truth.

You have a habit of ignoring any text that does not fit your theology while at the same time using text as support that in actuality do not do so.

You have three alternatives regarding the Death of Christ,

#1 You believe[like me] its limited to the elect and effectually saved them, giving them Faith to believe or #2 That He died for all mankind but didnt effect Salvation but made it merely possible if men would accept it

or # 3 that He died for all mankind and so all mankind will be saved.

Which is it ?

 

[Silverhair]

You have three alternatives regarding the Death of Christ,

#1 You believe[like me] its limited to the elect and effectually saved them, giving them Faith to believe or #2 That He died for all mankind but didnt effect Salvation but made it merely possible if men would accept it

or # 3 that He died for all mankind and so all mankind will be saved.

Which is it ?

I see you like Owen's trilemma. Owen's trilemma is written from his calvinist perspective so his argumentation in it is colored by that. But since I base my faith on scripture not what some man tells me scripture says, I do not give his trilemma much credit.

Well if we go by the bible it would have to be Christ is the propitiation for the whole world {1Jn 2:2} and those that believe in the risen Christ Jesus will be saved. {1Co 15:17} Just as God said Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,.. We do not and can not save ourselves but God will save all that will trust in His risen Son. {Eph 1:13}

 

[Silverhair]

Made Salvation Possible, thats a denial of the saving efficacy of Christs death, apostacy !

Actually it is biblical, you just do not want to accept that fact. If Christ had stayed in the grave, while all sins were covered and we were reconciled to God we could not be saved as we had not living savior to place our trust in.

I have to ask BF, were only your so called "elect" sinners or were all men sinners?
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

And whom did Christ die for?
Rom_6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

But we do not trust in a dead Christ but a living Christ.
1Co_15:14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

These verses show that it is through faith in the risen Christ that one is saved. Where are your verses that clearly show what you claim?

BF you make a number of claims but do not provide clear text to support them.

 

[Brightfame52]

I see you like Owen's trilemma. Owen's trilemma is written from his calvinist perspective so his argumentation in it is colored by that. But since I base my faith on scripture not what some man tells me scripture says, I do not give his trilemma much credit.

Well if we go by the bible it would have to be Christ is the propitiation for the whole world {1Jn 2:2} and those that believe in the risen Christ Jesus will be saved. {1Co 15:17} Just as God said Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,.. We do not and can not save ourselves but God will save all that will trust in His risen Son. {Eph 1:13}

Which is it ? Are you scared to say ?

 

[Brightfame52]

Actually it is biblical, you just do not want to accept that fact. If Christ had stayed in the grave, while all sins were covered and we were reconciled to God we could not be saved as we had not living savior to place our trust in.

I have to ask BF, were only your so called "elect" sinners or were all men sinners?
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

And whom did Christ die for?
Rom_6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

But we do not trust in a dead Christ but a living Christ.
1Co_15:14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

These verses show that it is through faith in the risen Christ that one is saved. Where are your verses that clearly show what you claim?

BF you make a number of claims but do not provide clear text to support them.

To say Christs death only made salvation possible, is the epitome of blasphemy. So tell me what made salvation certain a reality if Christ only made it possible.

 

[Silverhair]

Which is it ? Are you scared to say ?

Did you miss the part where I said I do not give Owen's comments much credit? I do not care what he wrote.
I told you what I believe and also what I do not.

Are you scared to accept what I said?

 

[Silverhair]

To say Christs death only made salvation possible, is the epitome of blasphemy. So tell me what made salvation certain a reality if Christ only made it possible.

Faith

 

[Alan Gross]

Despite the happiness John Calvin may have given occasion to the enemies
of The Eternal Gospel of Jesus Christ contained in The Doctrines of Grace,
the following Bible line of reasoning remains impenetrable:

"5. Christ “Justified” those for whom He died (Rom. 5:9).

"Much more then, being now Justified by His blood,
we shall be saved from wrath through Him".

If the "wrath" of God was abated by Jesus blood,
then who suffers God's "wrath"?

The ONLY ANSWER is: Lost souls for whom Jesus blood was NOT SPILT
and, therefore, DID NOT JUSTIFY THEM, OR SAVE THEM FROM "WRATH".

Otherwise, those lost souls, too, would have
now been "justified by His blood", and subsequently,

as the direct consequence of their Assured Justification
before The Trice Holy Eternal Judge of the Universe,
would have been ineluctably "saved from wrath through Him".

(Note: Folks like to use their reasoning formulas to oppose
the verses & teachings we've seen regarding a Limited Atonement.
However, this type of reasoning, below, remains triumphant.)

"If Christ bore the sins of all men without exception,
then all men are justified.

"If all men are justified, then they receive Christ by faith
and are at peace with God (Rom. 5:1).

"Therefore being Justified by faith,
we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ".

"All who are Justified are likewise Glorified (Rom. 8:30).
(As we see God's Eternal "Purpose" in Providence
that Accomplished Justification and Glorification for those Jesus died for,

were the portions of God's All Encompassing Omnipotent Plan of Salvation,
includes God's Omniscient Forknowledge,
His Activity in Predestinating souls to Eternal Life,

God's Irresistibly Calling them,
them, God Absolutely Justifying them through the Shed blood of Jesus
and God's ultimate Glorification of their soul and body in Heaven, forever.

28 "And we know that all things work together for good
to them that love God, to them who are the Called
according to His Purpose.

29 "For whom He did Foreknow,
He also did Predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 "Moreover whom He did Predestinate, them He also Called:
and whom He Called, them He also Justified:
and whom He Justified, them He also Glorified."


"It is clear from the Bible as well as from the world in which we live
that many live and die at enmity with God and are lost Eternally.

"If Christ died for all, then all would be Justified,
and none would be lost.

"We see from the Bible and our world that this is not true."
...
Yet, we see happiness expressed, such as:

strawman invalid argument!

Just simply as the result of some ammunition supplied by John Calvin,
unearthed from his tombs of writings, which appear to lean toward
the position of the enemies of The Doctrines of Grace.

Calvin had throw these in to confirm The Doctrines of Total Depravity.

Otherwise, how could he let this happen?

What falsities in assumptions had he adopted as philosophies
which could force these unfortunate errors in his Systematic Theology?

I believe a clue could be taken from something he said, below.

When we see a statement like,
"he has employed the universal term whosoever,
both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life,
and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers",

we see a couple of good things that "whosoever" accomplished
regarding it's use to "invite" and "to cut off every excuse from unbelievers".

Both of these are true and DO NOT require a "General Atonement" to "invite".

They don't.

They "seem" instinctively to our normal human sense of "fairness"
like they would require "a provision for Salvation" to have been made,
before an "invitation" to whosoever could be SINCERELY OFFERED.

There is the rub. That is a Paradox in Spades.

It is as if that sounds so utterly berserk, we can BARELY COMPUTE
even the slightest consideration of such a sacrilegious absurdity!

"We're INVITE Whosoever, BUT NO PROVISION WAS MADE FOR SOME?"

See? Some that we are to "invite"? How does that work?

Forget it, immediately, right? Not even possible to think about!

Can't happen. Not going to go there.

Well, with that being our first perfectly normal, natural impulse,
what is it that could easily follow right along behind it, without effort?

Look at one of the next things that was said, by Calvin,
"yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world,
when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ",

BAM! That was QUICK! The knee jerk reaction to "invite whosoever"
is almost automatically, "He invites all without exception, so......."
.."He (certainly must have) "reconciled. Himself to all without exception",
(didn't He? What else could possibly make sense?)

So, THAT is THE WAY IT IS.

Yep. In our natural mind. To our flesh. By our reasoning activity,
using a mind that has been affected by the curse of the Fall.

Meaning? Believe it or not, everything we "think" may not be "of God".

No matter how drop dead convinced "we tell ourselves"
we Know All about God's Thoughts, etc. We're All About GOD!!

Sometimes I think people are even thoroughly ADAMANT about
the Reality that Satan Lied to Jesus, but by the power of intuition
they can Rest Assured, "Satan can't lie to them". Ummm.

What do you "think"?

So, with this reflex presupposition in hand, where it is so instantly
thrust upon us that,
"Jesus died for everyone, or we couldn't sincerely "invite" everyone",
bring brought to our attention and made into part of a new theory,
we could say it is what Tony Robbins calls "The Principal Determinant".

A what? The Principal Determinant being the primary determining factor
for leveraging an understanding of a situation that we didn't know before.

The Principal Determining Factor, to me, for leveraging an understanding
of people's convictions regarding a General Atonement, as well as
these examples from Calvin's words, where he parrots the same notions
is that it "just seems that way, right off hand"
and what kind of nut is going to try and argue with you about it?

In other words, how much investigation was undertaken by Calvin,
prior to saying these things, at these times, in these ways?

The same kind of attention that he'd obviously brought to other subjects?

Maybe, the weekend on his knees, begging God for clarity, while fasting?

How about? John Calvin didn't give these comments a seconds thought
beforehand, for all practical purposes, hadn't referenced scripture
and was just shooting from the hip, just like everyone else thinks about it,
never dreaming he could have ever Needed to Do Anything Otherwise.

I Got This! He just figured he had the Tiger by the Tail and The Cat in the Bag.

What could go wrong? What's the hassle? The WHAT you SAY? Forget You!

Then, whereas I think it is the greatest idea ever to ask folks to consider
taking under consideration such things as The Trinity, or The Wrath of God,
or that so many billions and billions of souls stayed in Hell when Christ died,
etc., etc., when they weight the evidence concerning The Limited Atonement,
they have already set sail from the dock and are miles out to sea.

They Can't Be Bored.

Other than to get happy as a Lark when arguments to the contrary surface.

And there we have it.

A Pavlovian response gets engraved into the stone of their heart and it's over.

Where would Calvin's position arrive after giving an appropriate review of it?

Would he persist in reprimanding Jesus Christ for using the word, "many"?

I'm going to put a full boatload of honest doubt on all of that beeswax.

(Then, we have to come to terms in our heart and soul, in the prospect
of reconciling "making a sincere invitation to whosoever" against
the Bible presence of wordings which appear to restrict Atoning Efficacy,
which would not be expected to exclude accepting it "mixed with faith".

For a New Thread.)

 

[SavedByGrace]

There are ZERO verses in the entire 66 Books of the Holy Bible that teach any limit in the extent of the Death of Jesus Christ.

There are some that have been wrested from their normal God intended meanings to be forced to support this totally unbiblical teaching

John 3.16 to 18 destroys this beyond any doubt to the Spirit led mind

 

[Silverhair]

Despite the happiness John Calvin may have given occasion to the enemies
of The Eternal Gospel of Jesus Christ contained in The Doctrines of Grace,
the following Bible line of reasoning remains impenetrable:

"5. Christ “Justified” those for whom He died (Rom. 5:9).

"Much more then, being now Justified by His blood,
we shall be saved from wrath through Him".

If the "wrath" of God was abated by Jesus blood,
then who suffers God's "wrath"?

The ONLY ANSWER is: Lost souls for whom Jesus blood was NOT SPILT
and, therefore, DID NOT JUSTIFY THEM, OR SAVE THEM FROM "WRATH".

Otherwise, those lost souls, too, would have
now been "justified by His blood", and subsequently,

as the direct consequence of their Assured Justification
before The Trice Holy Eternal Judge of the Universe,
would have been ineluctably "saved from wrath through Him".

SNIP

Actually you start of on the wrong foot so you are lost from the start.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

So while the whole world has their sins covered
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Which fits in nicely with the desire of God
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Notice He does not desire some men, as calvinists seem to think, but all men.

And thus all can be saved. It is only those that actually trust in the risen Christ that will be saved
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

So while salvation is possible for all it is only those that have a personal faith in the risen Christ that will be saved.
1Co 15:14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.

1Co 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

So context, which seems to be something that you have overlooked, shows us that those that have freely trusted in Christ Jesus will, through Him, be saved from the wrath to come.

But if we were to go by your logic then since Christ is the propitiation for the whole world then the whole world must be saved so you are promoting universalism.