What does "The Limited Atonement" actually proclaim? What are the Scriptural Proofs?

[Brightfame52]

Have you looked at these verses

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Unless you think that there are some that were not included in the “whole world” were not “ungodly” or “sinners” or perhaps did not “fall short of the glory of God” then “all have sinned” and Christ was “a ransom for all” so that “He might taste death for everyone”

Christ died to cover the sins of mankind and yet not all are saved. Why you ask well the bible tells you in the verse you quoted

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

The world that God loved is the same world that He came to be the propitiation/ransom for. You do not seem to want to accept this but it is biblical.

To lessen the death of Christ to only cover that sins of the calvinist elect is to insult God and the sacrifice that Christ made.

Salvation is limited to those that believe, just as we are told in scripture. You asked why do some believe and others not? And yes the bible is clear:

Rom 1:16 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes...”

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Do you see a pattern here, the person has to hear and believe. God is gracious in that He has provide various means to draw us to Him whether this is creation, conviction of sin or even the gospel message.

You make contradictory statements when you quote

Rom 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

And then say “It doesn't mean that He died for everybody.”

It seems you are holding to a philosophical position rather than trust what scripture says.

So your saying that someone is saved before the foundation of the world. How does that happen? Since we are told in scripture that we are only saved by God when we have heard the gospel and believed it.

Again it is philosophy not scripture that you are trusting.

What you say is understanding scripture differently sounds a lot like what you hear from the Mormons and JW’s. BTW I am not calling calvinism a cult.

To quote a calvinist "A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved." Loraine Boettner

1Co 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

That is not understanding scripture differently that is denying scripture.

All those verses are limited to the elect

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Just because you have swallowed the pill of calvinism does not mean that I should not point out its errors.

You don’t even know what you are talking about… I mean how many have told you that only to be berated by your false teaching. Go ahead throw, spew your lies and negative comments out there continuously. LOL God only knows how many people you have pushed out of this forum because of your false and insulting accusations ( some have even commented on it using you as there impetus for leaving ). The very sad thing is that you change nobody’s mind…you are not a credible source for interpreting scripture …but you are laughable, which leads to your insulting nature then you become intolerant boar, and finally they either split the forum or else they avoid & ignore you. You must be proud of yourself.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@JesusFan



No its not offered, but its preached to them, yet if they are lost sinners the Gospel preached to them is foolishness

The Lord Jesus said, "I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Matt. 9:13)

18 For the preaching[not offering] of the cross is to them that perish[are lost] foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The words translated 'perish' and 'are saved' in 1 Cor. 1:18 are both in the Present Tense which indicates continuous action. Therefore the NKJV translates correctly, 'For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God.' No one is saved before he believes.

The Gospel preached only benefits spiritually them that are saved, to them its the power of God

The Gospel benefits only those who are called (1 Cor. 1:24) and those who believe (1 Cor. 1:21). It saves them.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

All those verses are limited to the elect

Look at?!? Of course not…LOL, they don’t fit his concepts of what God is… so not being in touch with reality this block head will just say that’s Calvinist or your not interpreting it correctly or some excuse meant to put you in an adversarial position…and that’s the goal (I’m right and your wrong). Again, you must be a Calvinist teaching erroneous assumptions. When you going to get it Brightflame52? Shut this guy up and shut him down! Start the new year right.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The Lord Jesus said, "I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Matt. 9:13)


The words translated 'perish' and 'are saved' in 1 Cor. 1:18 are both in the Present Tense which indicates continuous action. Therefore the NKJV translates correctly, 'For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God.' No one is saved before he believes.

The Gospel benefits only those who are called (1 Cor. 1:24) and those who believe (1 Cor. 1:21). It saves them.

Are you saying it’s the gospel that saves them? certainly their salvation does not depend upon having someone reaching them with the Gospel, but it depends upon the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ, and the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Brightfame52]

The Lord Jesus said, "I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Matt. 9:13)


The words translated 'perish' and 'are saved' in 1 Cor. 1:18 are both in the Present Tense which indicates continuous action. Therefore the NKJV translates correctly, 'For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God.' No one is saved before he believes.

The Gospel benefits only those who are called (1 Cor. 1:24) and those who believe (1 Cor. 1:21). It saves them.

For Salvation, the Gospel is only for the saved elect.

 

[Brightfame52]

Look at?!? Of course not…LOL, they don’t fit his concepts of what God is… so not being in touch with reality this block head will just say that’s Calvinist or your not interpreting it correctly or some excuse meant to put you in an adversarial position…and that’s the goal (I’m right and your wrong). Again, you must be a Calvinist teaching erroneous assumptions. When you going to get it Brightflame52? Shut this guy up and shut him down! Start the new year right.

They are only relevant for the elect, that's elementary !

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Are you saying it’s the gospel that saves them? certainly their salvation does not depend upon having someone reaching them with the Gospel, but it depends upon the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ, and the work of the Holy Spirit.

Let's be clear: salvation is not in the preacher - any preacher. 'Salvation is of the LORD' (Jonah 2:9 etc.). BUT, 1 Cor. 1:21. For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God, through the foolishness of the message preached, to save those who believe.' Have we all got that? It pleased God to save...... But it pleased Him to save through the preaching of the Gospel.
I share the preaching in my church with three other guys, and I do a bit of itinerant preaching if anyone is rash enough to ask me. I always pray that there will be someone there who isn't saved so that the Lord may use my foolish preaching to bring him to salvation. Usually I feel as if I'm 'preaching to the choir,' but recently in Britain, people are coming into the churches for the first time - God is starting to draw men and women to Himself, and He's doing it through Bible-based preaching. Is it revival? Not yet, by any stretch of the imagination, but maybe it's the start of something.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Earth Wind and Fire

Are you saying it’s the gospel that saves them?

Actually yes, from error and false concepts of salvation. The Gospel is primarily informative to give light of their salvation, however they were already saved eternally in election and legally by the redemptive work of Christ, and spiritually by the regeneration of the Spirit

 

[Silverhair]

You don’t even know what you are talking about… I mean how many have told you that only to be berated by your false teaching. Go ahead throw, spew your lies and negative comments out there continuously. LOL God only knows how many people you have pushed out of this forum because of your false and insulting accusations ( some have even commented on it using you as there impetus for leaving ). The very sad thing is that you change nobody’s mind…you are not a credible source for interpreting scripture …but you are laughable, which leads to your insulting nature then you become intolerant boar, and finally they either split the forum or else they avoid & ignore you. You must be proud of yourself.

When I quote scripture and you disagree with the clear text then it is not me that you are in disagreement with but rather the word of God.

The calvinist philosophy has to be injected into the text for it to fit your view. The fact that people do not like what the bible says but would rather hold to a man-made theology is really not my problem. All I can do is point out the errors.

Those that leave do so because they do not like having their false understanding of the text exposed.

This is not a calvinist echo chamber although many on here would like it to be.

 

[Silverhair]

All those verses are limited to the elect

As I said EFW I just point out the errors and BF's response is a clear example of such.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

@Earth Wind and Fire



Actually yes, from error and false concepts of salvation. The Gospel is primarily informative to give light of their salvation, however they were already saved eternally in election and legally by the redemptive work of Christ, and spiritually by the regeneration of the Spirit

As it says in this he Marrow of Modern Divinity, in Christ, in Christ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

When I quote scripture and you disagree with the clear text then it is not me that you are in disagreement with but rather the word of God.

The calvinist philosophy has to be injected into the text for it to fit your view. The fact that people do not like what the bible says but would rather hold to a man-made theology is really not my problem. All I can do is point out the errors.

Those that leave do so because they do not like having their false understanding of the text exposed.

This is not a calvinist echo chamber although many on here would like it to be.

Again, I’m not a Calvinist. My Church began in 60AD. Way before Calvin, the Reformed, the Lutherans, etc. We are original Baptists. Therefore Rome doesn’t matter nor their offshoot appendages.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

@Earth Wind and Fire



Actually yes, from error and false concepts of salvation. The Gospel is primarily informative to give light of their salvation, however they were already saved eternally in election and legally by the redemptive work of Christ, and spiritually by the regeneration of the Spirit

I agree… are you a PB?

 

[DaveXR650]

As it says in this he Marrow of Modern Divinity, in Christ, in Christ.

In "The Marrow of Modern Divinity", relating to the OP, they took a middle ground. They insist that the atonement is limited, yet they are quite clear in insisting that the offer of the gospel is real to everyone who hears it and that it is wrong to doubt that you may not be elect and base any warrant to believe on that. So while they believe in election, and in a definite atonement, they also taught that everyone has a warrant to believe the gospel and be saved. There is an exchange in the book, done in a question and answer format, where the new guy is told not to concern himself with things like election and whether Christ died for him because Christ has died, and the offer is to you.

I think though, that book was considered heresy by at least one group of Calvinists and I thought I remembered Sinclair Ferguson saying that technically it was still banned. I wouldn't think "The Marrow of Modern Divinity" would be a good fit for a Primitive Baptist or a hyper-Calvinist though. The way they offer the gospel sounds a little like Fuller, except it was before his time.

 

[JD731]

Bible stated that Jesus died for the sins of the many, but not the all?

If that is the case, which it certainly is not, then this statement is true according to your logic as well, that all are not dead in Adam but many are.

Ro 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

In other words you are saying that not all men are sinners and therefore die in the family of Adam, just many. Please explain yourself. Who are the rest of these people?

Now, I will show you that many means all because all are many.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
In verse 15, he said many be dead because of Adam.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The perversion of the gospel of Jesus Christ and his power to save all who are condemned in Adam, the teaching that is clearly the intent of this discourse of the apostle Paul, will send men to hell. God does not save men because they are religious, he saves them because they rest their souls upon the work of Jesus Christ by believing God, who said he would save all who come to him in his name.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

The message of the Calvinist is backwards always. They would expect us to believe that Adam is greater than Jesus Christ. They would rather say "but where grace abounded, sin did much more abound."

Someone must reach these guys and say it is not alright to teach these perversions.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If that is the case, which it certainly is not, then this statement is true according to your logic as well, that all are not dead in Adam but many are.

Ro 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

In other words you are saying that not all men are sinners and therefore die in the family of Adam, just many. Please explain yourself. Who are the rest of these people?

Now, I will show you that many means all because all are many.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
In verse 15, he said many be dead because of Adam.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The perversion of the gospel of Jesus Christ and his power to save all who are condemned in Adam, the teaching that is clearly the intent of this discourse of the apostle Paul, will send men to hell. God does not save men because they are religious, he saves them because they rest their souls upon the work of Jesus Christ by believing God, who said he would save all who come to him in his name.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

The message of the Calvinist is backwards always. They would expect us to believe that Adam is greater than Jesus Christ. They would rather say "but where grace abounded, sin did much more abound."

Someone must reach these guys and say it is not alright to teach these perversions.

And you are just the guy to do that, right.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In "The Marrow of Modern Divinity", relating to the OP, they took a middle ground. They insist that the atonement is limited, yet they are quite clear in insisting that the offer of the gospel is real to everyone who hears it and that it is wrong to doubt that you may not be elect and base any warrant to believe on that. So while they believe in election, and in a definite atonement, they also taught that everyone has a warrant to believe the gospel and be saved. There is an exchange in the book, done in a question and answer format, where the new guy is told not to concern himself with things like election and whether Christ died for him because Christ has died, and the offer is to you.

I think though, that book was considered heresy by at least one group of Calvinists and I thought I remembered Sinclair Ferguson saying that technically it was still banned. I wouldn't think "The Marrow of Modern Divinity" would be a good fit for a Primitive Baptist or a hyper-Calvinist though. The way they offer the gospel sounds a little like Fuller, except it was before his time.

And where does that warrant leave babies as well as others who don’t hear the gospel? So all those who die in birth are hell bound. That is what three Presbyterian ministers told me point blank. And Presbyterian ministers are Calvinistic… so they in turn can go to hell& that is the point I stopped being a Presbyterian…in fact, i renounce it.

Primitive Baptists however believe differently and they’re probably the only ones that do. My own personal belief system tells me that God will always do the right thing and man is subordinate to His will, therefore I put an extremely high value in regeneration, in a partial predestination and providence … God has promised them through his grace ( in Christ). Besides, I don’t like friggen praise bands.