What ever happened to “sound Doctrine”?

[stilllearning]

After reading a few responses on the “Pentecostal Baptist?” thread, I am starting to understand what is happening to sound Doctrine; (It’s being thrown out the window!)

It is strange how so many “Baptists” are forgetting what the Bible says about “tongues” & “women preachers/teachers” etc.
But then reading the OP of the other thread, about the person who is “coming out”(or as I see it, “falling away”), it is getting easer to see the writing on the wall.......
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For the past few months, our Church has been “slowly” studying through John 17:, and for the past two Wednesday nights we have been stuck in V.21, because of the Lord’s prayer.......
“That they all may be one;....”

The sticking point is the fact that some say, since this is the Lord’s prayer, than it was/will be answered; While others are seeing the facts about the condition of the Body of Christ, and are coming to the conclusion that this prayer just "will not" be answered.

i.e How can we be “one”, when so many “Christians” hold to differing Doctrine.
--------------------------------
We have ironed it out somewhat, by applying it to individual Christians and being “one in Christ”.

But one of the things that came out in this study, was the realization that some Christians(like those at our Church), only have one source of authority in matters of “doctrine”: .........“The Bible”.

While seemingly more and more Christians, are looking to “men” for answers.
This is why the Pentecostals, can accept so much error, in their Doctrine, when we can’t.

I also shared an experience I had, with a local acquaintance of mine, who is a Pentecostal: How we started to build a friendship, by way of conversations and emails, until I brought up how unbiblical tongues was....and I never heard from him again.

I pointed out, that if the tables were turned and a fellow Christian were to tell me, how unbiblical eternal security was, that I would ask him out for coffee, so we could talk more about it. But most Pentecostals I have met, are unwilling to open themselves up to a Biblical discussion about their beliefs.(Kind of like some Calvinists I know).
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I praise the Lord for my Church and it’s “convictions” in the area of Doctrine;
But my heart brakes for the thousands of other Christians and a growing number of Churches, who see gaining new members, as more important than sound Doctrine.

 

[Old Union Brother]

When Paul gave Timothy the charge

(2Ti 4:2) Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

(2Ti 4:3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

(2Ti 4:4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

That time is now.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

When Paul gave Timothy the charge



That time is now.

AMEN & AMEN:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[HAMel]

Just as the Camel is the result of a Horse going through a committee, Sound Doctrine fell victim to the critics..., and nobody really noticed.

 

[JesusFan]

After reading a few responses on the “Pentecostal Baptist?” thread, I am starting to understand what is happening to sound Doctrine; (It’s being thrown out the window!)

It is strange how so many “Baptists” are forgetting what the Bible says about “tongues” & “women preachers/teachers” etc.
But then reading the OP of the other thread, about the person who is “coming out”(or as I see it, “falling away”), it is getting easer to see the writing on the wall.......
--------------------------------
For the past few months, our Church has been “slowly” studying through John 17:, and for the past two Wednesday nights we have been stuck in V.21, because of the Lord’s prayer.......
“That they all may be one;....”

The sticking point is the fact that some say, since this is the Lord’s prayer, than it was/will be answered; While others are seeing the facts about the condition of the Body of Christ, and are coming to the conclusion that this prayer just "will not" be answered.

i.e How can we be “one”, when so many “Christians” hold to differing Doctrine.
--------------------------------
We have ironed it out somewhat, by applying it to individual Christians and being “one in Christ”.

But one of the things that came out in this study, was the realization that some Christians(like those at our Church), only have one source of authority in matters of “doctrine”: .........“The Bible”.

While seemingly more and more Christians, are looking to “men” for answers.
This is why the Pentecostals, can accept so much error, in their Doctrine, when we can’t.

I also shared an experience I had, with a local acquaintance of mine, who is a Pentecostal: How we started to build a friendship, by way of conversations and emails, until I brought up how unbiblical tongues was....and I never heard from him again.

I pointed out, that if the tables were turned and a fellow Christian were to tell me, how unbiblical eternal security was, that I would ask him out for coffee, so we could talk more about it. But most Pentecostals I have met, are unwilling to open themselves up to a Biblical discussion about their beliefs.(Kind of like some Calvinists I know).
-----------------------------
I praise the Lord for my Church and it’s “convictions” in the area of Doctrine;
But my heart brakes for the thousands of other Christians and a growing number of Churches, who see gaining new members, as more important than sound Doctrine.

Are you saying then that we cannot have honest disagreements between believers on different doctrines of the faith?

Think that we can ALL agree that spriitual gifts operating today would be seen as being "in house debate" as not "essential" to the faith... Ditto timing of Second Coming, Bible version to use, how to baptise etc...

lets agrre to focus on making sure we agree and adhere to Chrsitian 'essentials" before we go looking to start "going to war" over areas where we are allowed freeodom to disagree on!

 

[Allan]

What happened to 'sound' doctrine?
It fell on 'deaf' ears. :laugh:

 

[revmwc]

The Apostacy that was Prophsied by our Lord Jesus in Revelation. In the letters to the seven churches.

 

[JesusFan]

The Apostacy that was Prophsied by our Lord Jesus in Revelation. In the letters to the seven churches.

Again, just what "sound doctrine" was trampled underfoot in the referenced thread though?
wasn't it JUST disagrrements among bethren on "non essentials" of the Christian faith?

just WHAT would be seen as debasing 'sound doctrine" on BB?

 

[menageriekeeper]

Well, since I "came out" I'll give my opinion:

A good bit of what I was taught to be "sound doctrine" turned out to be nothing more than a preference or a tradition of men and had no business being taught as sound doctrine to begin with.

We as Baptists have essentials we should all agree on: The virgin Birth, the efficacy of Christ sacrifice, the sufficiency of scripture, etc.

But things like how long hair on a man should be or whether its a sin to smoke tobacco or just dumb, those fall under the heading of "liberty in Christ".

How to discern the difference? Well that is "sound doctrine" put into practice and you learn by doing.

 

[stilllearning]

Well, since I "came out" I'll give my opinion:

A good bit of what I was taught to be "sound doctrine" turned out to be nothing more than a preference or a tradition of men and had no business being taught as sound doctrine to begin with.

I fully agree...........
Mark 7:7
“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.”

 

[Tom Butler]

Are you saying then that we cannot have honest disagreements between believers on different doctrines of the faith?

Think that we can ALL agree that spriitual gifts operating today would be seen as being "in house debate" as not "essential" to the faith... Ditto timing of Second Coming, Bible version to use, how to baptise etc...

lets agrre to focus on making sure we agree and adhere to Chrsitian 'essentials" before we go looking to start "going to war" over areas where we are allowed freeodom to disagree on!

Yes, we can have different opinions on some things, but even some "nonessentials" could become tests of fellowship for me.

For instance, in my own congregation, we have diverse views on Calvinism, Eschatology, Open/Closed Communion. In fact, my own views are probably in the minority. But we have a remarkable unity among our members.

Now, if my church adopted the position that the gifts are still operating today, then I'm outa there. If tongues-speaking becomes the norm, I'm gone.

Why leave over the sign gifts, but not the other things? Because we have found that we can co-exist peacefully with diversity over Calvinism, etc. But we could not otherwise, because the use of the sign gifts today in our church would be inherently divisive and disruptive. It would be impossible for all of us to just "get along."

The sign gifts are either in operation today or they are not. There is no middle ground.

My congregation believes they are not. If someone tries to introduce them into my church, we're gonna have a big fight. The losers will have to go because co-existence is impossible.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, we can have different opinions on some things, but even some "nonessentials" could become tests of fellowship for me.

For instance, in my own congregation, we have diverse views on Calvinism, Eschatology, Open/Closed Communion. In fact, my own views are probably in the minority. But we have a remarkable unity among our members.

Now, if my church adopted the position that the gifts are still operating today, then I'm outa there. If tongues-speaking becomes the norm, I'm gone.

Why leave over the sign gifts, but not the other things? Because we have found that we can co-exist peacefully with diversity over Calvinism, etc. But we could not otherwise, because the use of the sign gifts today in our church would be inherently divisive and disruptive. It would be impossible for all of us to just "get along."

The sign gifts are either in operation today or they are not. There is no middle ground.

My congregation believes they are not. If someone tries to introduce them into my church, we're gonna have a big fight. The losers will have to go because co-existence is impossible.

Does your baptist Church have a "hard or soft" belief on the Gifts operating though?

My Church does NOT have them in operation, but there are some who do speak in tongues while in personal prayer, and the Lord has heard prayers of some, and He has in His mercies healed marriages and bodies...

We do not say practice them in Church, but do not say cannot while in your home, in "personal time"

 

[revmwc]

Well, since I "came out" I'll give my opinion:

But things like how long hair on a man should be , those fall under the heading of "liberty in Christ".

How to discern the difference? Well that is "sound doctrine" put into practice and you learn by doing.

Well Paul told us this about long hair on a man,

1 Corithians 11:
13Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

Notice verse 14 it is a shame unto him to have long hair, so does he have "liberty in Christ" to wear long hair of course, does Paul say it is a shame, yes.

The bible teaches a man should not have long hair and as Paul says so does nature. So how should we deal with this scripture when we come to it?

 

[DHK]

Does your baptist Church have a "hard or soft" belief on the Gifts operating though?

My Church does NOT have them in operation, but there are some who do speak in tongues while in personal prayer, and the Lord has heard prayers of some, and He has in His mercies healed marriages and bodies...

We do not say practice them in Church, but do not say cannot while in your home, in "personal time"

Why would you want to? If you practice them, you demonstrate your belief in them disqualifying yourself from a church that states they don't believe that gifts are for today. You would also be putting yourself in the camp of the Charismatics IMO.

 

[Zenas]

I'm sort of curious, has anyone had members of your church attempt to introduce what Tom Butler calls "sign gifts"? If so, what happened then?

We have had members who considered themselves charismatic but none who tried to alter the status quo in the church. We tolerate them as long as they don't shout, speak in tongues or otherwise create a disturbance in church. However, most of them leave after a time, and complain that we are a dead church without any evidence of the spirit. Right now I think we have one member who has a "private prayer language."

 

[DHK]

I'm sort of curious, has anyone had members of your church attempt to introduce what Tom Butler calls "sign gifts"? If so, what happened then?

We have had members who considered themselves charismatic but none who tried to alter the status quo in the church. We tolerate them as long as they don't shout, speak in tongues or otherwise create a disturbance in church. However, most of them leave after a time, and complain that we are a dead church without any evidence of the spirit. Right now I think we have one member who has a "private prayer language."

They visit, might stay around for awhile, never join; leave after hearing preaching against the Charismatic movement which is bound to come up some time or another.

 

[stilllearning]

They visit, might stay around for awhile, never join; leave after hearing preaching against the Charismatic movement which is bound to come up some time or another.

This has been my experience also.

 

[menageriekeeper]

The bible teaches a man should not have long hair and as Paul says so does nature. So how should we deal with this scripture when we come to it?

By the first three words of the passage: "judge for yourself". That clearly makes it topic of Christian liberty.

 

[humblethinker]

After reading a few responses on the “Pentecostal Baptist?” thread, I am starting to understand what is happening to sound Doctrine; (It’s being thrown out the window!)

...reading the OP of the other thread, about the person who is “coming out”(or as I see it, “falling away”), it is getting easer to see the writing on the wall.......
--------------------------------

Here's a link to the coming-out post you referred to.

With the phrase 'Old Fashioned, Independant, Fundamental, King James Only' in quotes and then identifyhing it as a "movement", I would hope that you would not consider anyone 'coming-out' of this as a falling-away from the truth. Are you equating this modern day 'movement' to 'the truth'?

 

[Tom Butler]

Does your baptist Church have a "hard or soft" belief on the Gifts operating though?

My Church does NOT have them in operation, but there are some who do speak in tongues while in personal prayer, and the Lord has heard prayers of some, and He has in His mercies healed marriages and bodies...

We do not say practice them in Church, but do not say cannot while in your home, in "personal time"

I won't try to speak for everybody in my church, but here's what I think.

When I say I don't believe the sign gifts operate any longer, I do not mean that God no longer heals, no longer answers prayer or does other miracles.

I do mean that we as believers may pray for God to heal someone. I have seen such healing. The sick woman's fever broke at exactly the same time we were praying. But it wasn't the result of somebody exercising a healing gift. It was God's mercy. I have also see people in our church gather to pray earnestly for a member shot in a robbery. He died.

Sign gifts do not require prayer or faith. Either you have one or you don't. In this day, you don't. Anyone can pray.