What Exactly Does "Have Fellowship With Devils" Mean?

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I have never made the claim that the person's understanding is a prerequisite to the reality of what is happening….

OK, let’s revisit the claim addressed.

…
Because multitudes of Gentiles who offer sacrifices to idols do not in actuality have any thought or intention in their minds that they want to or even would be sacrificing to demons, the interpretation that having fellowship with demons means having spiritual commonality of purpose, mindset, etc. with demons is untenable and is not what the passage is teaching.

The claim appears to be that because persons are not totally aware of it means they cannot be aligning themselves with the agenda of demons, that is, having spiritual commonality, purpose, mindset, etc. That is to be demonstrated, not merely asserted. It has not been demonstrated. Indeed, I think it cannot be.

There are two fellowships contrasted in the passage. One with Christ, the other with demons. Does Paul say that these Christians participating in the sacrifices understood what they were doing? It appears that Paul is correcting their thinking, not just their outward behavior. They seem ignorant of the reality, namely that their participation in the sacrifices was having fellowship with demons, which is what the non-Christians were doing.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

OK, let’s revisit the claim addressed.
The claim appears to be that because persons are not totally aware of it means they cannot be aligning themselves with the agenda of demons, that is, having spiritual commonality, purpose, mindset, etc. That is to be demonstrated, not merely asserted. It has not been demonstrated. Indeed, I think it cannot be.

There are two fellowships contrasted in the passage. One with Christ, the other with demons. Does Paul say that these Christians participating in the sacrifices understood what they were doing? It appears that Paul is correcting their thinking, not just their outward behavior. They seem ignorant of the reality, namely that their participation in the sacrifices was having fellowship with demons, which is what the non-Christians were doing.

No, there is no such claim. Ultimately, I am not talking at all about whether they are aware of it or not. That does not make any difference concerning what actually takes place.

My point is that neither you nor anyone else has yet demonstrated from Scripture the validity of the underlying assumption that their engaging in such activities necessarily aligns them with the agenda of demons in engaging in an activity that was originated by demons, etc. Mere assertion that their engaging in those activities is of demonic origin is not proof that it is in actuality the case.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

To examine further what having fellowship with demons is in 1 Cor. 10:20, it is useful to compare the Greek of 1 Cor. 10:20 with a different passage in the Greek NT that has the same verb γίνομαι used with the same noun κοινωνός:

1 Cor. 10:20 ἀλλ᾽ ὅτι ἃ θύει τὰ ἔθνη, δαιμονίοις θύει, καὶ οὐ Θεῷ· οὐ θέλω δὲ ὑμᾶς κοινωνοὺς τῶν δαιμονίων γίνεσθαι.

1 Cor. 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils

OK. γίνομαι means to 'become' or to 'happen.' So 1 Cor. 10:20b could be translated, 'I do want want you to become fellowshippers with demons.' How do you think that affects the meaning of the passage?

But to bring the matter up to the present day, do you suppose that this might have relevance to professing Christians participating in 'interfaith' services or even looking up their horoscopes in the daily newspaper?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

OK. γίνομαι means to 'become' or to 'happen.' So 1 Cor. 10:20b could be translated, 'I do want want you to become fellowshippers with demons.' How do you think that affects the meaning of the passage?

But to bring the matter up to the present day, do you suppose that this might have relevance to professing Christians participating in 'interfaith' services or even looking up their horoscopes in the daily newspaper?

I am still studying the various occurrences in biblical Greek of koinonos with ginomai and with eimi. At this point, I have not come to any settled positions.

Having looked at many different Greek lexicons, I am presently leaning toward what Louw-Nida and BDAG say that would indicate that to have fellowship with demons concerns participating with demons in the idolatry:

34.6 κοινωνός, οῦ m ; συγκοινωνός, οῦ m: one who participates with another in some enterprise or matter of joint concern - 'partner, associate, one who joins in with.' κοινωνός: οἳ ἦσαν κοινωνοὶ τῷ Σίμωνι 'who were partners of Simon' Lk 5.10; εἰ οὖν με ἔχεις κοινωνόν 'if, then, you think of me as your partner' Phm 17; ; οὐκ ἂν ἤμεθα αὐτῶν κοινωνοὶ ἐν τῷ αἵματι τῶν προφητῶν 'we would not have joined them in killing the prophets' Mt 23.30. συγκοινωνός: συγκοινωνούς μου τῆς χάριτος πάντας ὑμᾶς ὄντας 'all of you being partners with me in the privilege' Php 1.7. [Louw-Nida Lexicon from BibleWorks10]​

Being a co-participant in some respect with demons in the idolatry would then be the main thrust.

Not knowing much at all about "interfaith" services, I do not know if the teaching of 1 Cor. 10:20 applies to them or not. If these services involve actual offerings on altars to physical objects of worship, the teaching of 1 Cor. 10:20 would directly apply.

Concerning horoscopes, other passages of Scripture show that believers should have no part in such occult activities.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Paul is addressing a problem we also see in the letters to the seven churches in Asia minor, that being the tendency of Christians to compromise in order to have a job or keep their position in the community. In order to do this, we find in Revelation, people had to worship the god's of the trade guild or participate in honoring Ceasar as Lord (god).

I do not see any evidence in the passages in Rev. 2 that supports the reading that what is in view is idolatry "forced" upon believers from without because they felt that they had "to compromise in order to have a job or keep their position in the community." Rather, in both passages (Rev. 2:14, 20), Christ speaks against false teaching or teachers within the churches that misled people in the churches "to eat things sacrificed unto idols."

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

…Because multitudes of Gentiles who offer sacrifices to idols do not in actuality have any thought or intention in their minds that they want to or even would be sacrificing to demons, the interpretation that having fellowship with demons means having spiritual commonality of purpose, mindset, etc. with demons is untenable and is not what the passage is teaching.

No, there is no such claim. Ultimately, I am not talking at all about whether they are aware of it or not. That does not make any difference concerning what actually takes place. …

Your post makes an assertion beginning, “Because…,” with no scriptural support at all, nor even an argument other than personal opinion. It uses the wording “in actuality have any thought or intention in their minds.”

If the statement and its claim are being retracted, fine. Just say so. Or provide scriptural proof supporting it.

But denying its essential content, content which denies a possible interpretation of scripture, will only derail discussion. A demand that scripture be presented to refute the unproven claim is a baseless demand.

For all we know, Paul may very well mean what your post (without proof) denies he could mean. It has to be left on the table as a possibility for discussion.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Your post makes an assertion beginning, “Because…,” with no scriptural support at all, nor even an argument other than personal opinion. It uses the wording “in actuality have any thought or intention in their minds.”

If the statement and its claim are being retracted, fine. Just say so. Or provide scriptural proof supporting it.

But denying its essential content, content which denies a possible interpretation of scripture, will only derail discussion. A demand that scripture be presented to refute the unproven claim is a baseless demand.

For all we know, Paul may very well mean what your post (without proof) denies he could mean. It has to be left on the table as a possibility for discussion.

No, I am not retracting the statement and its claim.

The ones who assert that having fellowship with demons through the offering of sacrifices on an altar to an idol means "having spiritual commonality of purpose, mindset, etc. with demons" have to prove their assertion.

To claim that someone has something as their purpose or mindset, it must be proven that they had the conscious intent to do that thing. I have provided evidence that there are people who offer things on altars to idols who do not have anything to do with demons as their intent, purpose, or mindset.

What's more, I can attest directly to my own experience prior to my salvation of offering something (a recitation of words) to a physical object of worship. Led by a very close relative, I had no intent, purpose, mindset, or even thought of doing something demonic or offering anything to demons. In fact, I did not even know what the words meant that I was led to direct to the idol.

Although the reality was that what I did was in actuality to demons, it was not at all my purpose or mindset to do any such thing to demons.

 

[AustinC]

I do not see any evidence in the passages in Rev. 2 that supports the reading that what is in view is idolatry "forced" upon believers from without because they felt that they had "to compromise in order to have a job or keep their position in the community." Rather, in both passages (Rev. 2:14, 20), Christ speaks against false teaching or teachers within the churches that misled people in the churches "to eat things sacrificed unto idols."

The churches were all dealing with Rome and the requirements that you worship the god of the guild if you wished to work in a trade. Failure to worship meant failure to procure a good job. The churches, specifically Thyatira, were dealing with this and certainly Corinth would have the same issues.
Today, it's not much different. To move up corporately, especially in sales, you may be required to compromise holiness for profit gained.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

No, I am not retracting the statement and its claim.

The ones who assert that having fellowship with demons through the offering of sacrifices on an altar to an idol means "having spiritual commonality of purpose, mindset, etc. with demons" have to prove their assertion.

To claim that someone has something as their purpose or mindset, it must be proven that they had the conscious intent to do that thing. I have provided evidence that there are people who offer things on altars to idols who do not have anything to do with demons as their intent, purpose, or mindset.

What's more, I can attest directly to my own experience prior to my salvation of offering something (a recitation of words) to a physical object of worship. Led by a very close relative, I had no intent, purpose, mindset, or even thought of doing something demonic or offering anything to demons. In fact, I did not even know what the words meant that I was led to direct to the idol.

Although the reality was that what I did was in actuality to demons, it was not at all my purpose or mindset to do any such thing to demons.

As has already been stated, the only mindset or thought necessary is to participate. And what is being described in your posts is intentional participation. To be fellowshipping, one does not have to know the details of it, or know precisely what or whom else that fellowship entails.

It is quite believable that someone would say they did not realize they were participating with demons. More surprising would be those who said they fully realized it. The nature of deception is that people are deceived.

Furthermore, none of this meant as an accusation, merely observation. Paul meant what he meant, and his teaching was meant for Christians. Even Christians need to be taught better regarding these matters. Paul certainly thought so.

As a final note, there are many ways to be deceived. Paul notes that “Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light,” (see 2 Cor 11:14). There are many supposedly good spiritual things and supposedly good spiritual leaders that in fact are not. All Christians need guidance in these matters.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

How many children did they have? Plenty.
Enough to grieve God with their utter sinfulness.

Which brings up a related point (no pun intended):

After the flood, we are told there were only four couples saved to repopulate the earth.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

How many children did they have? Plenty.
Enough to grieve God with their utter sinfulness.

Which brings up a related point (no pun intended):

After the flood, we are told there were only four couples saved to repopulate the earth.

I have no idea what you are talking about and what these statements have to do with this thread.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Paul meant what he meant, and his teaching was meant for Christians. Even Christians need to be taught better regarding these matters. Paul certainly thought so.

You have offered zero evidence or argumentation to support your views. Mere assertion does not show the correctness of one's positions.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I have no idea what you are talking about and what these statements have to do with this thread.

Oops. Sorry. Agree here. Misposted--wrong thread.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Paul meant what he meant, and his teaching was meant for Christians. Even Christians need to be taught better regarding these matters. Paul certainly thought so.

You have offered zero evidence or argumentation to support your views. Mere assertion does not show the correctness of one's positions.

Wait a minute. You chose that excerpt from my position to disagree with? Doing so would be to disagree with your own posts, and fundamentals, and common sense.

And the only argument I’ve made is that your own assertions without proof cannot be the basis for beginning a fruitful discussion. They will only prevent fruitful discussion.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Wait a minute. You chose that excerpt from my position to disagree with? Doing so would be to disagree with your own posts, and fundamentals, and common sense.

And the only argument I’ve made is that your own assertions without proof cannot be the basis for beginning a fruitful discussion. They will only prevent fruitful discussion.

You have offered zero biblical evidence to support the view that having fellowship with demons means "having spiritual commonality of purpose, mindset, etc. with demons." For this view to be correct, there has to be conscious knowledge and intent because that is what the words "purpose" and "mindset" mean.

Because there is no biblical evidence to support that view, that view is not biblical. I am going to ignore any more messages from you that support that view unless you provide some actual biblical argumentation and support for the validity of that view.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Reality…having interaction with demons

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

You have offered zero biblical evidence to support the view that having fellowship with demons means "having spiritual commonality of purpose, mindset, etc. with demons." For this view to be correct, there has to be conscious knowledge and intent because that is what the words "purpose" and "mindset" mean.

Because there is no biblical evidence to support that view, that view is not biblical. I am going to ignore any more messages from you that support that view unless you provide some actual biblical argumentation and support for the validity of that view.

Oh, good. Then I get to have the last word.

Your post started an argument by asserting that Paul could not mean what you wish to deny, but did so without scriptural proof. Then your posts rant about how someone else is not supporting their own view with Scripture. My posts are expressing the view that such “argumentation” will never get anywhere, as the basis is mere opinion.

I’ll just end with unsupported warnings for others. Engage in idol worship and other such practices at your own peril. What you think you are doing may well deceive you. What is actually going on may well be your downfall. Demons are real. Better to never get involved. But Jesus can deliver you from them.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Reality…having interaction with demons

I agree that having fellowship with demons means that demons are actually present and involves spiritual interaction and participation with them.

I am continuing to study this subject and will post further when I have more substantive information to share.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I agree that having fellowship with demons means that demons are actually present and involves spiritual interaction with them.

I am continuing to study this subject and will post further when I have more substantive information to share.

Some advice, use scripture to back up your claims and hypothesis.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The churches were all dealing with Rome and the requirements that you worship the god of the guild if you wished to work in a trade. Failure to worship meant failure to procure a good job. The churches, specifically Thyatira, were dealing with this and certainly Corinth would have the same issues.
Today, it's not much different. To move up corporately, especially in sales, you may be required to compromise holiness for profit gained.

MAY….