what happens if you die while you're sinning? Pt. 2

[gekko]

J.Jump said "You can't tell whether someone is saved whether they ave good fruits or not."

would you mind providing scripture for that?
and not the one where it says "only God can know their hearts"

we've gone over that already - yes only God knows the heart of man.

proverbs 20:5 Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water; but a man of understanding will draw it out.

what's that mean?

proverbs 27:19 As in water face answereth to face, so the heart of man to man.

what's that mean?

 

[gekko]

first of all - lets deal with this 'kingdom of heaven(s)' deal: by which standingfirm replied:

I took the liberty of going to the greek for each instance 'kingdom of heaven' is listed in Matthew. Here is what I found

kingdom of heaven 32 times...

3772. ouranos
Search for G3772 in KJVSL
ouranoV ouranos oo-ran-os'

perhaps from the same as 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):--air, heaven(-ly), sky.

See Greek 3735

3735:
3735. oros
Search for G3735 in KJVSL
oroV oros or'-os

probably from an obsolete oro (to rise or "rear"; perhaps akin to 142; compare 3733); a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain): -hill, mount(-ain).

See Greek 142
See Greek 3733

kingdom of heaven is not translated kingdom of the heavens.

-------------------------

if we are christians - we will have good fruit. no? otherwise we will be cut down. Jesus said that one.

"Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

if people wilfully sin - they do not have good fruit - therefore will partake in the second death.
----------------

J.Jump said "You are talking about the parable in Matthew 13 and that chapter is not dealing with salvation by grace through faith. That chapter is dealing with the kingdom of the heavens. You have to keep things in context. Those are two separate messages. "

what's it matter if we're talking about salvation by grace through faith or timbuktu? - that scripture is talking about true/false conversions.

 

[gekko]

let me ask you this:

do you have love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance?

 

[gekko]

"yay! you can't judge me because Jesus loves me! im going to heaven for sure now! YAY!! "hey babe, wanna chill out tonight? hmm?" lets go toke up - get drunk! eat, drink, and be merry! whooopeeee!!!! now i can sin - but God forgives me - i know that for sure- and that i will go to heaven because i dont need good fruits - i can have bad fruits now! yeeeeeeah! woah - sin feels sooo good! why dont you try it? woah - what a feelin'! hey man - love those spinners! im just gonna sit back pop a couple clips - steal a few whips - get jiggay with it!

i know that i am saved. and that when i die im going to heaven. "

 

[gekko]

and when my friends look at me they don't know im christian - because i toke up - drink in - pop clips - steal whips - get jiggy - lie - curse God - etc.

WHAT A JOKE J.JUMP

 

[DHK]

Can anyone give me an example of a sin that is unwillful. All sin is willful. We sin because we have a sin nature, but also because we make the decision to sin. No one forces us to sin. We choose to do so every time. To say that you do not sin is to put yourself on the same par as Jesus--"who did no sin."
All sin is willful sin.
DHK

 

[J. Jump]

Gekko it is way beyond obvious that you don't want to deal with Scripture in an open and honest manner. You continue to throw out so many Gekko says quotes and expect people to believe it's the Bible.

You are the one that says we can no whether or not someone is saved or not, but yet you don't provide any Scripture evidence, yet you expect me to show you with Scripture what I believe. Again you contradict yourself.

You show me Scripture that says we can know whether or not someone is saved. Nothing their fruit is not knowing whether they are saved or not. Knowing their fruit is knowing their fruit. Fruit doesn't have anything to do with salvation, because fruits are works. And Ephesians 2:8-9 tell us plainly that salvation does not come by works. It doesn't get any more plain that that. You obviously choose not to believe that or twist it to make it fit your false doctrine.

Standing Firm only proved that he can go look up a word in a lexicon. Guess what...lexicons aren't inspired. Lexicons are what people "think" those words mean. Go look up in an Interlinear Greek NT and you will see what I'm saying. Acutally I'll even do the leg work for you:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat13.pdf

Scroll down to verse 11. There you will find exactly what I said is true. It is kingdom of the heavens not kingdom of heaven.

Find any other verse in Matthew that has kingdom of heaven listed and then look it up on that interlinear Greek NT and you will find the same thing. Bottom line is that is a mistranslation.

what's it matter if we're talking about salvation by grace through faith or timbuktu? - that scripture is talking about true/false conversions.

What does it matter. Do you really mean that? Context is everything when it comes to Scripture interpretation. You don't just get to assign meanings to things. That's already been done by the Holy Spirit.

The context of Matthew 13 is not salvation by grace through faith. The context is the kingdom of the heavens. And the kingdom of the heavens is not the message of eternity.

Therefore your false conversions (which isn't even the correct term for what you are trying to talk about) is out of context and therefore the parable of the sower can't hold the meaning that you are trying to assign to it.

"yay! you can't judge me because Jesus loves me! im going to heaven for sure now! YAY!! "hey babe, wanna chill out tonight? hmm?" lets go toke up - get drunk! eat, drink, and be merry! whooopeeee!!!! now i can sin - but God forgives me - i know that for sure- and that i will go to heaven because i dont need good fruits - i can have bad fruits now! yeeeeeeah! woah - sin feels sooo good! why dont you try it? woah - what a feelin'! hey man - love those spinners! im just gonna sit back pop a couple clips - steal a few whips - get jiggay with it!

i know that i am saved. and that when i die im going to heaven.

This is just absurd. No one on this thread or the original even came close to promoting the nonsense that you have typed here. No one is saying that's the way a Christian should live. Paul even preached against that same logic I believe in Romans.

That's what folks like you that have bought into this false doctrine always end up saying because their stance has been shown time and time again to be false. You just sink down to saying you are saying that people can live their life any way they want to.

That is absolutely incorrect. We are commanded to live a righteous and holy life. But guess what...commands are not certainties. Commands can either be followed, or commands can be broken.

It's the same was when you were growing up in your parents' household. They had rules that you had to follow. You could either choose to follow them or you could choose to break them. If you broke the rules did that mean you weren't part of the family any more? Of course not.

Same holds true for the family of God. You can choose to follow God's commandments or you can choose to disobey God's commandments, but even if you live a life of rebellion you are not kicked out of the family.

And again you can't know whether or not they were a part of the family to begin with. Only God knows that.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

For consideration:

Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

James 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
James 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

It is my contention that a New Creation while not perfect will have a New Heart and a New Direction with becoming a New Creation...

While we can't see the Heart...

And, while the Fruit *may* not be a 'perfect' indicator of the inward condition it can indicate whether any change at all has occurred...

Luke 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
Luke 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
Luke 13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

I do not think this is an over night process...

I do not think that it would be easy...

I just want to document that there may be a possibility of dire circumstances if one continues in sin...

Instead of the threads question a better question might be this.

If anything that is not of Faith is Sin...

Then is it possible to die without sinning?

I ask this because some people tend to think that the merest infraction, the slightest doubt negates all faith...

I don't believe this...

Because Faith is 'substance' and doubt is the absence of faith and God savor's the substance not the absence of something...

(Though active doubt, manifest as unbelief, can add 'resistance' and hinder the effect of faith.)

Anyway...

If we rely on Jesus to be the Author and Finisher of Our faith...

Then is seems to me that momentary indiscretions at death might not be the bugaboo some might make them out to be...

The one concern I have is the case where a person plans to sin and then carries it out and dies in the act...

That is, they intentionally make provision for the Flesh and then intentionally sin...

In this case I am not at all sure of how God would deal with it...

The Arminiain in me would tend to think lost for eternity...

But, I'd like to see how the OSAS crowd would view such a case...

It's not an issue I've really thought all that much about...

SMM

 

[webdog]

1Co 3:1 Brothers, I was not able to speak to you as spiritual people but as people of the flesh, as babies in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were not yet able to receive it. In fact, you are still not able,
1Co 3:3 because you are still fleshly. For since there is envy and strife among you, are you not fleshly and living like ordinary people?

The above Scripture is proof that Christians can live without showing "fruit" in a backslidden state...and still remain believers.

 

[J. Jump]

Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Salvation by grace through faith is not the context of this verse so applying this principal to salvation by grace through faith is outside of Scripture.

The book of James is not dealing with salavtion by grace through faith. James is written to a group of believers.

It is my contention that a New Creation while not perfect will have a New Heart and a New Direction with becoming a New Creation...

Do you have Scripture that says so? We don't receive a new heart when we are saved by grace through faith. Our dead spirit is made alive and brought into the light. At that point our flesh is at enmity with our spirit because the flesh still wants to sin, while God is erging us on in the faith. Sometimes the flesh wins and sometimes the Spirit wins.

Unfortunately there are some that allow the flesh to win all the time.

As for the new creation that means we are neither Jew nor Greek, but we are a new creation in Christ. The old (physical identity) has passed away and behold all things have become new.

That is because the offer of the kingdom of the heavens was taken away from the nation of Israel. So in order for the Jews to partake of this offer on an individual they could no longer be Jewish or that would cause God to be a liar. But Gentiles couldn't receive it because they weren't of the lineage of Abraham, which was said that all physical and spiritual blessings would flow. Therefore Gentiles had to be made a new creation. And now that we are in Christ we are of the lineage of Abraham and the spiritual blesshings will now flow through Christ and through His bride.

The Luke passage is speaking to the nation of Israel. That's what the meaning of the fig tree is.

In this case I am not at all sure of how God would deal with it...

He would deal with it the same way He does everyone else. They are saved. Again I don't know why it is so hard to see when Scripture makes it so plain. Salvation by grace through faith does not have anything to do with works. Not prior to salvation and not after salvation.

Salvation by grace through faith is a one-time act in a person's life. After it is done it's done. It becomes a matter of the past not to ever be discussed again. There's nothing we do to get it and there's nothing we can do to make sure we keep it and there's nothing we can do to make sure we don't lose it.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Forever? Just Curious?

It is obvious that Paul was chastising them and giving them the old Spiritual kick in the pants to get it together, too.

And, it says nothing about not bearing fruit in the above passage...

Fruit can be sour. Sour fruit is still Fruit...

Might be inedible... But, still Fruit...

And, some times even a good orchard has a bad year...

But, it still bears fruit...

SMM

 

[gekko]

J.Jump said "The context of Matthew 13 is not salvation by grace through faith. "

did i ever say it was?


this is what i said: "quote:"yay! you can't judge me because Jesus loves me! im going to heaven for sure now! YAY!! "hey babe, wanna chill out tonight? hmm?" lets go toke up - get drunk! eat, drink, and be merry! whooopeeee!!!! now i can sin - but God forgives me - i know that for sure- and that i will go to heaven because i dont need good fruits - i can have bad fruits now! yeeeeeeah! woah - sin feels sooo good! why dont you try it? woah - what a feelin'! hey man - love those spinners! im just gonna sit back pop a couple clips - steal a few whips - get jiggay with it!

i know that i am saved. and that when i die im going to heaven."

and this is your response: "but even if you live a life of rebellion you are not kicked out of the family."

here is a scripture against your response: "Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

-----
in response to DHK: Can anyone give me an example of a sin that is unwillful. All sin is willful. We sin because we have a sin nature, but also because we make the decision to sin. No one forces us to sin. We choose to do so every time. To say that you do not sin is to put yourself on the same par as Jesus--"who did no sin."
All sin is willful sin."

hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins..."

notice it says "IF" we sin wilfully... doesn't that insinuate that we can sin unwillfully? that when we hate adultery (for example) but then lust after a woman - but we hate doing that. say i hate adultery (which i do) but then i go out and lust - by accident - i did not want to - because i hate sin. "now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." - "for I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: FOR TO WILL IS PRESENT WITH ME; but HOW TO PERFORM THAT WHICH IS GOOD I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."
(romans 7:17-20)

it is possible to hate all sin. no? yes it is possible. but the flesh is weak - and will give in. I hate sin - but my flesh wants to be cooled by the mud like swine going back to the mud - it want's to be satisfied.

---------

now. i have never said that fruits will save a man. never will i believe that.

what i have said is this: that if someone is a true christian - their fruits should show that they are true. "if we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another." (galatians 5:25-26)

J.Jump said "Gekko it is way beyond obvious that you don't want to deal with Scripture in an open and honest manner. You continue to throw out so many Gekko says quotes and expect people to believe it's the Bible."

i do not wish to put it out that what i say is scripture.

J.Jump said "You obviously choose not to believe that or twist it to make it fit your false doctrine."

i do not believe that salvation is of works. AND HAVE NEVER SAID THAT IT IS. SO STOP SAYING THAT I SAY THAT! - thank you in advance.

J.Jump said "Knowing their fruit is knowing their fruit. "

knowing their fruit is knowing if they are walking in the Spirit - "if we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit" (remember the fruits of the Spirit are above that scripture...)

J.Jump said "You show me Scripture that says we can know whether or not someone is saved."

can't - its not in there. but we can know if they are walking in the Spirit or not. "if we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit" - if somebody is not showing the fruits of the Spirit - how do we know if they are walking in the Spirit?

J.Jump said "And again you can't know whether or not they were a part of the family to begin with. Only God knows that."

i agree.

---------
you still have not answered me:

"do you have love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance?"

 

[J. Jump]

Gekko you really crack me up. Now you are saying that we can't know whether they are saved, but we can know if they are walking in the Spirit.

That is not the same thing you have been espousing through this thread.

And while I would tend to agree that knowing whether or not someone is walking in the Spirit is obvious by their fruit or lack thereof that has absolutely nothing to do with that person's eternal destiny.

Your verse in Revelation proves absolutely nothing. Look at this verse in Revelation 2 - He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

Now that was written to believers (saved people). If they overcome they will not be hurt by the second death. Guess what. If they don't overcome they will be hurt by the second death.

So that means there are some believers that will spend eternity in hell? No. You've got to keep everything in context.

There are some saved people (actually a great many - broad is the way to destruction and narrow is the way that leads to life - that was also written to saved people) that will have their part in the second death, because they didn't overcome.

But it doesn't have anything to do with their eternal destiny. How do we now that? Because overcoming has to do with being faithful stewards or works. And we know eternal salvation is not based on works.

Here's the bottom line and I'm going to end my discussion with this.

When a person is saved by grace through faith their eternal destiny is fixed at that point in time.

From that point on we are called to good works to bear good fruit, to be faithful stewards, to live by faith and to walk by the Spirit and anything else that I may have forgotten (oh yeah to repent and confess our sins).

We are commanded to do those things. Again commandments can either be followed or they can be broken. But either way it doesn't impact our status as a child of God. That can not be undone.

However, if one decides to allow the flesh to rule their life now they will receive their just reward in the coming age. All of this faithful living has to do with whether or not one is found worthy in the coming age.

If anyone is truly sincere about learning more you are more than welcome to PM me or email me and I will be more than happy to visit with you.

 

[Claudia_T]

Do all of you besides me, gekko and Brother Bob believe the same stuff as JJump does about the "Coming Age"??

 

[Claudia_T]

You know what? I dont know about anyone else, but I have noticed something on this and the Part 1 of this thread.

I keep saying I believe we should give God our heart and endeavor to keep His commandments... and that I know I am still a sinner but that God desires our hearts,,, and so on and so forth.


But the other side keeps on insisting... well you cant keep the whole law... you are a sinner, and so forth


WHY DO YOU KEEP ON DOING THAT???

I dont get it.


And furthermore,

God said in the New covenant that He would write His laws upon our hearts... Dont any of you actually believe God when He says that???

 

[gekko]

J.Jump said "Gekko you really crack me up. Now you are saying that we can't know whether they are saved, but we can know if they are walking in the Spirit.

That is not the same thing you have been espousing through this thread."

haha. i didn't know how else to word it until i read that verse in galatians - i do believe we can tell if someone is walking in the spirit or not - by their fruits.

-----

claudia, i dont know what he means by the "coming age"

but i do understand now what he is saying - dont totally agree - as i'm in need to search the scriptures more on the matter.

-----

so J.Jump by what you've last posted - it seems to me that you believe that saved people can go to hell because they did not overcome - or am i misunderstanding that?

 

[Claudia_T]

saved people can go to hell?

I THOUGHT that I saw him say that but wasnt sure.

do they just stay in hell for a certain period of time then leave? like purgratory?

 

[gekko]

im going to try and answer the way he would (J.Jump please correct me if im wrong)

no - the spirit is saved - that is salvation by grace through faith - that means your spirit is renewed - made alive.

repentance and what not saves the soul...

and now im lost - unless i've skimmed over it - i can't remember what you (J.Jump) would respond with...

 

[gekko]

the spirit will go back to God - i know we've made that point (with scripture basis) - can't remember what page it was on in pt. 1

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
You know what? I dont know about anyone else, but I have noticed something on this and the Part 1 of this thread.

I keep saying I believe we should give God our heart and endeavor to keep His commandments... and that I know I am still a sinner but that God desires our hearts,,, and so on and so forth.

But the other side keeps on insisting... well you cant keep the whole law... you are a sinner, and so forth

WHY DO YOU KEEP ON DOING THAT???

I dont get it.

What is there not to get.
No one can keep the law. The Jews could not keep the law. Christ came because the law could not save. The law only brought death. It condemned. It is and always has been impossible to keep the law. There is no one on this board that keeps the Law.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
--What is the meaning of this verse?
If you expect salvation to be by keeping the law or by works of the law, then you are under the curse of the law.
The verse says that you must be able to continue to keep all that is written in the law every minute of every day of your life. In other words you would have to live a sinless life. One sin, one transgression of the law in any way, puts you under the curse of the law. Cursed is everyone who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
--We are saved by faith; not by keeping the law.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
--The entire reason for the death of Christ was to save us from the "curse of the law." The brings a curse, not life. We are saved through Christ, not the law. The law cannot save.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
--I invited Christ to be my Lord and Saviour, and His Spirit dwells within me. His Spirit has freed me from the law of sin and death--the OT law.
DHK