what happens if you die while you're sinning? Pt. 2

[J. Jump]

God is stronger than the devil

That is an absolutely true statement. However God is not automatically in charge of a Christians life. It is the choice of the Christian to let God be in control (walk by the Spirit, walk in the Spirit, etc.) or they can choose to run the show themselves and walk in the flesh.

Once you become a Christian God doesn't automatically "control" your every waking moment.

God is stronger than devil, but we must allow Him to be that strength in our life. We must crucify the flesh. We must die to self. We must take up our cross daily.

 

[J. Jump]

Gekko it doesn't matter how you word it he was told to do something for eternal life. That means it is not connected to salvation by grace through faith, because that is not of works.

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by Heavenly Pilgrim:

You destroy every notion of fairness and equity of the character of God, and totally destroy ever vestige of morality, when you devise a system of theology in which not only makes God’s commandments, which are fair, just, pure, and true, impossible to keep, and then paint the horrific picture of a god that would punish man for an eternity in a burning living hell for failure to overcome necessitated fate, a fate that they had no possible way of avoiding. I can think of no greater blight to place upon the character of a Loving, Just, Holy God than such a system of theology as you have set forth.

How many times and ways could I say AMEN to that?

AMEN! I just wish that they could realize that.

 

[gekko]

J.Jump. Jesus told the rich young ruler to follow Him.

does that concern salvation or eternal life?

 

[J. Jump]

Gekko that concerns age-lasting life (eternal is a word that is mistranslated in modern translations).

I think I posted in this thread information about the mistranslation of aionios, but if not PM and I'll give you the info.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

J.J.,

You say to me:

One the Jews were "saved" people already. They had already experinced God's grace through faith and were not in need of that message

This is type of dispensationalism doctrine.

Matt. 19:16-30 is for "Jews only" is not what in Christ's mind. Of course, a rich young man was a Jew, no doubt. But, it doesn't matter either Jew or Gentile, he was. Himself came toward to Christ by asking him about enter into eternal life.

Before go ahead discuss with you on this passage. You also say:

He wasn't told to BELIEVE(emphasis mine). He was told to DO something. He was told to do a work.

I think you seems misunderstanding what Christ told him.

Obeying the commandments, do works in order to be saved or have eternal life, these were not what in Christ's mind. Christ's point was... Christ was testing on young man, to see if he have faith in Christ. But we know that Christ already know that he have no faith BEFORE he came and ask Christ of questions. Because Christ is an omniscience.


Verse 21 is the most important key of the context of the passage that, Christ challenged young man, by testing him, to see if he have FAITH. Verse 21 is a powerful challenge question by Christ asked to a young man. Caused young man became bitter or upset, then left Christ. Because he refused to surrender his life and to follow Christ. He have no faith.

Also, there is no difference between faith and believe. Both are same. Both are not apart on the relate with salvation.

Didn't you know of Romans 4:3-5 telling us, Abraham BELIEVED in God, he was already counted unto righteousness. How? By through His FAITH.

Hebrews chapter 11 talking about the list of the Old Testament saints were saved by their faith through their actions. Abraham was listed among of them about faith.

Bible always often emphasis on faith. Faith is part of salvation.

Obivously, a young rich man is already in hell, because of have no faith in Christ.


I don't care what you saying to me of the definition on 'eternal'. I do not need to looking at Greek word with definition on word, 'eternal' of Matthew 19:16-30. I am NOT saying that Greek Dictionary is not necesscary to looking at it for the right definition. I real have no problem with Matt. 19:16-30 of KJV in English.

'Eternal life' was not what in young man's mind, that it is a temporary. No doubt, no question, a young man understoods 'eternal life' always relates with destiny after death is a MATTER of salvation issue. We know that. Also, I know that, a young man has never hear of premillennialism doctrine in his time. Because it was not yet existed till about 1900 years later after his death. Also, he never hear of 'a thousand years' beyond the end of the world, because the doctrine was not yet existed, and it is not find in the Old Testament books or Torah either.

A young man KNEW 'eternal life' is very clear speak of future destiny beyond after death. So, no doubt, a young man asked Christ about his salvation.

Yes, Matthew 19:16-30 does have matter with salvation issue, because of 'eternal life' question, as what the man asked Christ.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[J. Jump]

This is type of dispensationalism doctrine.

Incorrect. This is Bible doctrine. And the Bible teaches dispensations.

Absolutely it was the for the Jews only. Christ said He came to seek and to save the lost sheep of the House of Israel. At another point He says I came to the Jews only.

He came to the Jews only because they were the ones that were in a spiritual condition to entertain the message that was being delievered.

I think you seems misunderstanding what Christ told him.

Really. But you do? Christ said follow me. In order for someone to follow someone else that must DO something. Therefore it is a work no matter how you try to spin it.

Now is faith involved? Of course it is. Everything is to be done by faith. If it is not of faith it is sin.

But just because faith is invovled doesn't negate the fact that he was told to work. Works at eternal salvation are not in the same picture or same equation. It really is that simple.

Once again an inheritance is something quite different than a gift. Eternal salvation is a gift not an inheritance.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

J.J.,

You asked Bro. Bob, a question - if a person does not keep the commandment, will a person go to hell?


Yes.

Please look in 2 Thess. 1:7-9. This passage telling us, when Christ shall come with his angels, the people shall be cast away into everlasting fire. Why? Because of them, which know NOT God, and OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

The Bible doesn't not rule out that Commandments are apart from the gospel.

Gospel always invloved within whole 66 books of the Bible. The teaching of the gospel begins with from Genesis to Revelation emphasis on salvation.

Gospel means message.

Also, in Revelation 14:9-12 telling us, it warns us, if any person takes the mark, or worshipping the beast, shall be cast into everlasting fire in the presence of Christ and his angels. Notice verse 12 tells us, "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, AND THE FAITH OF JESUS."

Obivously, we must take heed and listen what God's Word saying, and to obey it. That means, we do NOT taking the mark, neither worshipping the beast, that is part of the commandments. OR... if we do not take heed of warnings with commandments, then, we might end up in everlasting for being be deceived and disobey God's Word.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Brother Bob]

KJMatt.15

"26": But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

"27": And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

"28": Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

I never read where Jesus made any burnt offerings. I thought he preached the same doctrine then as now for He taught His diciples what to teach and after His death and He sent them to the whole world He didn't tell them to preach something different.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Have you not read where there will be no liars or murders in Heaven?

I've read where you've written it many times, but I've never read it in the Bible. Care to show me?

And your not picking up any sticks on Saturday either, I suppose.

Not to mention causing others to stumble by turning on the light switch or water faucet on Saturday, or driving to church, or to the store or anything else.

You are comparing spiritual salvation with inheritance.

The last I checked, inheritance is a family matter, or a matter of someone who is considered as family. A gift can be given to anyone who accepts it.

for it shows there are Christians that are able to explain the true doctrine as I have understood it all these years. I rest my case, amen

Now, if you would just look at what Scriptures say instead of men who happen to believe the same as you do. Amen?

 

[J. Jump]

DeafPostTrib let's look at your Scripture passage:

7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

What is the key word that is going to give us the context of what is being talked about? obey

Obedience is a work. So in light of Ephesians 2:8-9 this passage can not be talking about salvation by grace through faith. Because faith is not of works. Faith is not of obedience. Faith is of believing.

 

[Brother Bob]

silly

 

[Hope of Glory]

Let's take a look at it from Scripture, minus man's spin on things:

Everlasting

Aionios - Age-lasting

Eternal

Ages

Age Verse List

 

[DeafPosttrib]

J.J.,

'Eternal life' does matter with salvation issue. It is not apart from salvation issue.

Notice Matt. 25:46 says, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: BUT the righteous into life eternal."

Obivously, this verse does have do with salvation issue, because of two groups shall go into their either two eternality destiny- hell or heaven, which one they shall spend follow at the Judgment Day.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

In Christ

 

[gekko]

hope of glory said "Not to mention causing others to stumble by turning on the light switch or water faucet on Saturday, or driving to church, or to the store or anything else."

you dont read the word do you. those law were made up by the rabbi's. do some research on it.

hope of glory said "I've read where you've written it many times, but I've never read it in the Bible. Care to show me?"

do we have to do this over and over again? yeesh. here's the verse: Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

hope of glory said "Now, if you would just look at what Scriptures say instead of men who happen to believe the same as you do. Amen?"

we could say the same for you... no?

 

[Brother Bob]

MURDERERS!!

Revelation, chapter 21
"7": He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

"8": But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

LIARS
Revelation, chapter 22
14": Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

"15": For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Revelation, chapter 21
"27": And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Its a waste of time for you won't accept it even though one rose from the dead.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hope of Glory,

OH COME ON!

I don't care what links you show them to us of the definition on 'everlasting'.

Let's pay attention, what a young young man asked Christ of his own question, not listening what any theologians saying!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Brother Bob]

I had an uncle who was a preacher but he became a newspaper preacher and really went wild, led his family down the same road and then died. His family now are completely dumbfounded not knowing what to do. Many read too many phamplets, newspapers to get their belief. The Bible says if any lack wisdom let him ask of God.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Bro. Bob mentioned of Rev. 21:7-8. I would like to add other passage tells the same thing with Rev. 21:7-8.

Gal. 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; 1. adultery, 2.fornication, 3. uncleanness, 4.lasciviousness, [20] 5.Idolatry, 6.wicthcraft, 7.hatred, 8.variance, 9.emulations, 10.wrath, 11.strife, 11.seditions, 12.heresies, [21] 13.Envyings, 14.murders, 15.drunkenness, 16.revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told YOU(believers) in time past, that they which do such things SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD."

Clearly, this passage tells us, names of sins, which individual committed, shall not have eternal life.

Bible commands us to repent sins or go perish- everlasting punishment.

Simple and plain.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[J. Jump]

And unfortunatley for Brother Bob, DeafPostTrib and several others you are relying on man's translation of God's Words instead of what God actually said.

Now granted the translators didn't make a ton of mistakes, but their (man) theology did enter in to the translation.

"Eternal" life is just one area. You keep saying eternal life this, eternal life that, everlasting life here, everlasting life there. Well that's all fine and good in the English translation, but translations are not God's Words. Translations are someone else's words about what the original word is trying to say.

Therefore if I take a letter in Spanish written by Joe Blow, and I translate it into English so my wife can read it she's not going to be reading Joe Blow's words any more she's going to be reading my translation of Joe Blow's words.

Now with that in mind we have to understand what the original language says when there is dispute. In the case of eternal life we can clearly see that the word does not mean what the translators wanted it to mean.

How can a word (aion) which means age or time with beginning and end go 180 degrees to mean eternal or everlasting when changed to aionios.

Talking about silly.