what happens if you die while you're sinning? Pt. 2

[DeafPosttrib]

J.J.,

I would like to discuss wiuth you on 2 Peter 3:8, as what you mentioned this recently.

Premills often use this verse as the proof of premill doctrine, because of 'a thousand years', saying so.

Premills are senstively pick a verse out of its context, what the whole passage is all talking about.

The only way you can understand 2 Peter 3:8 better. You have to read start with verse 3 thru 8(suggest read whole chapter 3). Verse 3 tells us, we shall know in the last days, many people shall saying, "Where is the promise of his Coming? Thousands of years ago, many people already hear the gospel saying that Jesus is coming again. They were expecting that the Lord might come again anytime in their lifetime. But many years come to passed, it didn't yet happenedin their lifetime. They died. So, throughout many decades, many people have been hear the old gospel saying that Lord is coming again. But, nothing happen. They make fun at God, and do not believe the Lord shall come again. Same with Noah's Day. Noah have been warned people about the flood might come anytime. They made fun at him. He have been preaching to them on the flood for 120 years.

2 Peter 3:9 tells us, God have been longsuffering(patience) with people, He does not want all people go perish, but He wants them come and repentance. God could have destroyed earth by the flood, if he wants to. But, God waited on Noah and his 7 people builted Ark for 120 years. 120 years seem so long time for people. But, in the Lord's sight, 120 years is tooooo short for him like as one day.

2 Peter 3:8 tells us, our sight that a thousand years seem so long time for us. But, in the Lord's sight, it is toooooo short time for him like as one day.

Apostle Peter's point of chapter 3 talks about the Judgment is an immenint. We do not know when Christ shall come again. Christ commands us, that we ought to be watch and be ready all the times.

2 Peter 3:8 have do nothing with ' millennial kingdom'. The passage of chapter 3 talks about warning about the judgement might come anytime so quickly without any expect.

Understand?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Hope of Glory]

gekko: do we have to do this over and over again? yeesh. here's the verse: Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

OK, this one has been gone over before, but here we go again. Break out your Greek text, and you will see that it is the "part" (share) that shall be in the lake, not the person.

DeafPosttrib: Gal. 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; 1. adultery, 2.fornication, 3. uncleanness, 4.lasciviousness, [20] 5.Idolatry, 6.wicthcraft, 7.hatred, 8.variance, 9.emulations, 10.wrath, 11.strife, 11.seditions, 12.heresies, [21] 13.Envyings, 14.murders, 15.drunkenness, 16.revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told YOU(believers) in time past, that they which do such things SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD."

You even highlighted the pertinent part: This verse has to do with inheritance and the Kingdom, not with spiritual salvation. Yet, you still don't see it.

Clearly, this passage tells us, names of sins, which individual committed, shall not have eternal life.

Bible commands us to repent sins or go perish- everlasting punishment.

It tells us those who will not inherit the Kingdom.

I have a question, do you think your salvation is secure or not?

DeafPosttrib: Christ told to the Pharisees that, the kingdom is removed from them, and given it to another nation.

I couldn't have picked a better verse: The Kingdom is removed from them (the Jews as a nation). There's nothing in this passage about spiritual salvation, other than to remove the Kingdom from them, they are saved people! Unsaved people don't have the option of entering the Kingdom.

gekko: oh my. well i guess we'd all better become monks and learn fluent greek and hebrew and aramaic to understand what the bible is really saying...

If more preachers learned the original languages and preached from them, then we would have fewer denominations and fewer misunderstandings and arguments.

But, that would take away their stranglehold on people, so it will not happen in this age.

Time to go back to work. I'll be back later, Lord willing.

 

[J. Jump]

reading and listening what Joey Faust saying. Please back to God's Word, and listen an old fashion gospel what the Bible actual saying. Please sticky what God's Word say, and follow it.

Again how do you know who I have listened to or who I have not. I've actually never listened to one of his sermons nor have I read his book. I do know who he is.

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by D28guy:
BB, Claudia,

I wish I had time to respond now, but gotta go to work.

I'll be back later.

Mike

Hey Mike,

You know you asked a while back about my foot problem?

Well I finally after 3 months got my family doctor to do an MRI xray and it turns out I probably have a broken foot. So Ive been walking around with a broken foot for 3 months.


Anyways my family doctor told me I need to get with it and make a new appt with another orthopedist and take the MRI over there and he has to read the MRI to make the proper disagnosis... so now I have some hope of getting this thing fixed! I had to beg them to do this MRI test, but finally I think Im making progress.

Yipeeeee!!! Pray for me ok??

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Sorry, Station Break..

Now back to our regular programming...

 

[J. Jump]

you see... when we die - we go to judgment - what happens after judgment? a holding cell? no we are already in a holding cell. after the judgment we go to either heaven or hell.

Depends on who you are talking about. Saved and unsaved are not judged at the same time. The saved go from judgment to the 1,000-year kingdom, not eternity.

Unsaved will go from judgment to punishment (most say that it is eternal punishment, but I'm not sure I'm sold on that yet - see I don't know everything - as I have already said that in previous posts)

look at you J.Jump - you're sittin there thinkin you got the bible all figured out on what comes when and how and who goes and why. i dont think that - at least im humble enough not to equate others to pharisee's and false doctrine and man-made tradition Mr. Know-it-All.{/QUOTE]

Another mature quote from you.

I am far from knowing it all, but there are some things that are so plain in Scripture it is hard to miss. Unfortunately it is missed, but that doesn't negate the clear teaching.

I know of nothing on my own, but have been taught by the Holy Spirit and by men that are being obedient to teach the whole counsel of God's Scripture.

man-made tradition? no - we go straight from scripture. prove we dont. we have already proved we do.

You and several others do a great job of cherry picking verses that you think line up with the views you are trying to convey. However, time and time again you all have been shown how you are mishandling Scripture, not comparing Scripture with Scripture, not interpreting Scripture accurately or trusting in man's teachings rather that the Bible's teachings.

on a new earth. and there'll be a new heaven.

Actually as DeafPostTrib has showed it is actually plural it's new heavens and new earth. Yes there will be a new heavens. Again go back to the language and you will see that the heavens that is talked about is not the heaven (singular) that God currently dwells in.

 

[J. Jump]

JJ; Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father. Read the Scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life.

Where did He say it was physical?

He that overcometh will I write upon him the name of the city of my God, that Holy City, New Jerusalem.
Foundations 12 and the names of the 12 Apostles of the Lamb, and 12 gates of pearl and the names of the Twelve tribes of Israel. No need of the light of the sun for God and the Lamb are the light of that city.

Huh? What are you talking about now?

What are you talking about physical? Are you talking about the physical promises given to Israel? If so go back to the OT. The story of Abraham, etc.

 

[Brother Bob]

HoG; OK, this one has been gone over before, but here we go again. Break out your Greek text, and you will see that it is the "part" (share) that shall be in the lake, not the person.

(That would not change meaning of Scripture at all,part or share as you say is same.)


HoG; You even highlighted the pertinent part: This verse has to do with inheritance and the Kingdom, not with spiritual salvation. Yet, you still don't see it.

(Who do you think will be in the Kingdom and if you will study you find that the Kingdom is made up of believers, twelve foundations "twelve apostles of the Lamb" twelve gates of pearl "twelve tribes of Israel" God and the Lamb are the light of that city, God and the Lamb are the temple of that city. )jeepers

Hog; I couldn't have picked a better verse: The Kingdom is removed from them (the Jews as a nation). There's nothing in this passage about spiritual salvation, other than to remove the Kingdom from them, they are saved people! Unsaved people don't have the option of entering the Kingdom.

(This Scripture even more tells us the city is the believers)


HoG; If more preachers learned the original languages and preached from them, then we would have fewer denominations and fewer misunderstandings and arguments.

But, that would take away their stranglehold on people, so it will not happen in this age.

(If more people would put their studies in the Scriptures instead of writers who come up with "indwelt" and other names added to the Scriptures then the world could see the church in a light instead of "how great is that darkness".)

In God we all better trust,
BBob

JJ; Didn't figure you knew what I was talking about but if you study the Scriptures you will find out and stop cherry picking.

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />JJ; I am not your judge and neither would I want to be.

But you sure seem to think it is okay to be everyone else's judge if they aren't keeping the commandments. Hell for you! That sounds like you are judging to me.

God is not going to be in Heaven forever? Where is He going to!!!!!! I need to know.

Revelation 21:3

And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

That should be pretty clear that God is going to dwell among men and not the other way around.

In case that isn't quite enough God has promised the nation of Israel a physical kingdom and physical land. If that doesn't happen (which it will) then God is a liar, of which HE IS NOT.

If that isn't enough go back to the first chapter of Genesis where God created man. Why did God create man? To have dominion over the earth. God hasn't changed His mind about our purpose, so therefore man will reside on earth.

So go back to Revelation. Where will God spend eternity? Earth. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually the Bible teaches that the righteous will be with God 1,000 years in heaven and at that time we will open up the books of heaven in Judgment and see why God let some be lost and others were saved, etc... at which time Satan will be "bound" on earth during the 1,000 years because he will have to be there with nobody to tempt since all the wicked were were alive at the second coming of Christ will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

Ater this 1,000 year judgment period the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven to earth and at that time the wicked will encompass it and God will rain fire down upon them and they will be destroyed along with Satan.

Then the righteous will dwell with God on Earth throughout eternity

Claudia

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hope of Glory,

You discuss of Revelation 21:8, and you say:

You will see that it is the "part"(share) that shall be in the lake, NOT(emphasis mine) the person

.

Didn't you realized This verse is speak of 'the second death' - Reve. 21:8b?

"Second death" is NOT a temporary, it is eternality.

Notice Rev. 2:11 says, "He that hath an ear, LET HIM HEAR what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of THE SECOND DEATH." It warns us, if we fail to overcometh(victory in our spiritual warfare), then we shall be end up suffer "the second death" which is speak of the lake of fire- everlasting punishment, NOT a temporary.

You say to me:

You even highlighted the pertinent part: This verse has to do with inheritance and the kingdom, not with spiritual salvation. Yet, you still don't see it.

I disagree.

Gal. 5:19-21 does matter discuss about salvation and relate with individual's soul, body, & SPIRIT.

You say:

It tells us those who will not inherit the kingdom

Does this verse saying it is a temporary?

You ask me:

I have a question, do you think your salvation is secure or not?

Yes. My responsible is to make sure my calling and being be elect IFI do these things, and shall never fall according to 2 Peter 1:10.

I will discuss on 'The Jews as a nation' as what you mentioned it later tomorrow.

Because, I have to go to sleep now, get ready for 3rd shift job tonight.

Tomorrow, I will be continue discuss more with you on salvation issue with verses.

Have a nice day! God bless you!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Hope of Glory,

You discuss of Revelation 21:8, and you say:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You will see that it is the "part"(share) that shall be in the lake, NOT(emphasis mine) the person

.

Didn't you realized This verse is speak of 'the second death' - Reve. 21:8b?

"Second death" is NOT a temporary, it is eternality.

Notice Rev. 2:11 says, "He that hath an ear, LET HIM HEAR what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of THE SECOND DEATH." It warns us, if we fail to overcometh(victory in our spiritual warfare), then we shall be end up suffer "the second death" which is speak of the lake of fire- everlasting punishment, NOT a temporary.

You say to me:

You even highlighted the pertinent part: This verse has to do with inheritance and the kingdom, not with spiritual salvation. Yet, you still don't see it.

I disagree.

Gal. 5:19-21 does matter discuss about salvation and relate with individual's soul, body, & SPIRIT.

You say:

It tells us those who will not inherit the kingdom

Does this verse saying it is a temporary?

You ask me:

I have a question, do you think your salvation is secure or not?

Yes. My responsible is to make sure my calling and being be elect IFI do these things, and shall never fall according to 2 Peter 1:10.

I will discuss on 'The Jews as a nation' as what you mentioned it later tomorrow.

Because, I have to go to sleep now, get ready for 3rd shift job tonight.

Tomorrow, I will be continue discuss more with you on salvation issue with verses.

Have a nice day! God bless you!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen! </font>[/QUOTE]actually, the second death means the second DEATH... not eternal torment in Hell.

The wicked will be punishe for a certain time but then the fire will go out..
thats why the Bible says things like this:

Mt:3:12: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will BURN UP the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Mt:10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell.

(You should go read my thread on the subject of "Hellfire")

 

[J. Jump]

DeafPostTrib and you do exactly what all people trying to disprove the 1,000-year reign of Christ do you say that it is talking about some figure of speech.

The problem with that theory is when you compare Scripture with Scripture you see that is absolutely not the case.

II Peter takes you back to Genesis. Most people incorrectly say the Genesis 1:1-2:3 is God's six-day creation of the earth and the universe.

However God tells us about His creation in verse 1. Verse two starts a whole different topic. God uses days 1-6 to restore a fallen creation not a absolute creation. He worked six days and then rested on the seventh.

God is at work again restoring a fallen creation (man) and He's going to work after the same pattern He established in the opening chapters of Genesis. He's going to work six days (six thousand years) and He's going to rest a seventh day (1,000 years). We are in man's day which will last 6,000 years and then the Lord's day will come and it will last 1,000 years, which gets you the seven days (1,000 years as per II Peter 3:8).

The seventh day is the day of rest. It is the 1,000-year reign of Christ. That is the world/age to come prior to eternity.

Here's the deal and this will be my last post on the subject, because you all obviously have your mind made up and are closed to anything other than what you think. And that's okay, because that's between you and God.

Everything that has been given to you is straight from the Scripture. If you choose not to believe Scripture that is on you. It's amazing to me and becomes even more amazing as the days go by that people will just totally neglect clear Bible teaching so that they can continue to walk in the traditions of man.

And just so that you can't accuse me inccorectly of not changing my views. This is something that I just came to believe in about four months ago at the most.

Until then I believed like every other Baptist that when I die I was going to spend eternity with God in heaven and that all my sins were forgiven at the cross, but for some reason I needed to repent when told so that I could be forgiven of something I was supposedly already forgiven of. I believed that works would prove that someone was saved, etc. etc.

God has shown me the Truth. I don't know why He has chosen to teach me, but for some reason He has willed in my heart that I know Him and not man's words and pictures of Him. And for that I am EXTREMELY grateful.

It is my prayer that I will continue in the faith that He has given me and that I will be found worthy when I stand before Christ and that one day I will be able to rule and reign with Him, because it's not a guarantee.

 

[gekko]

J.Jump said "It is my prayer that I will continue in the faith that He has given me and that I will be found worthy when I stand before Christ and that one day I will be able to rule and reign with Him, because it's not a guarantee."

it is a guarantee if you're a true convert...

"Luke 10:20 - Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."

 

[Brother Bob]

Mark, chapter 9
43": And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

"44": Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

"45": And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

"46": Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

"47": And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

"48": Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


Revelation, chapter 14
"11": And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Claudia_T]

Bob,

What are you trying to say?

 

[Brother Bob]

They punish forever in the Lake of Fire and their smoke accend up for ever and ever.

It must of got to crazy on here for Bob Ryan.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Brother Bob: (If more people would put their studies in the Scriptures instead of writers who come up with "indwelt" and other names added to the Scriptures then the world could see the church in a light instead of "how great is that darkness".)

If I didn't think you were serious, I would find this funny. But, since I do think you are serious, I find it sad that you think that remaining in ignorance is better than studying what the Scriptures actually say. I'll pray for you.

DeafPosttrib: I disagree.

Gal. 5:19-21 does matter discuss about salvation and relate with individual's soul, body, & SPIRIT.

Then you are disagreeing with Scripture. It has to do with the Kingdom. Here, I'll post the verses for all to see:

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

It has to do with inheritance; the Kingdom.

DeafPosttrib: Does this verse saying it is a temporary?

Yes. I highlighted the part that talks about the Kingdom rule, which will be temporary.

DeafPosttrib: quote:

I have a question, do you think your salvation is secure or not?

Yes. My responsible is to make sure my calling and being be elect IFI do these things, and shall never fall according to 2 Peter 1:10.

In other words, the answer to the question, "Is your salvation secure?" is a resounding "NO!" because you are relying upon yourself for your salvation instead of the Lord.

gekko: it is a guarantee if you're a true convert...

So, you think we're all going to be ruling and reigning? Over whom?

J. Jump: And just so that you can't accuse me inccorectly of not changing my views. This is something that I just came to believe in about four months ago at the most.

I was blessed to be permitted to present the Kingdom to a man over the summer last year. This man has been saved for about 50 years, and is one of the most knowledgeable people I have ever met when it comes to memorizing Scripture.

His eyes were opened to the Kingdom. He called me up after heatedly rejecting what I had taught him, and said, "I see it now!"

He's now on fire, preaching the Kingdom, just as John the Baptizer and Jesus did, but of course, he's rejected in many Baptist churches.

It's always encouraging to find a new convert to the path of truth.

 

[gekko]

hopeofglory said "So, you think we're all going to be ruling and reigning? Over whom?"

over the new earth.

 

[D28guy]

Claudia,

1st of all, I have seen your post about your broken foot, and I certainly will continue to pray for you and your continued healing.

"what exactly does walking in this newness of spirit and not oldness of the letter involve???"

Paul said that concerning how he lived out his christian life, that...

"Its no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me"

Paul here is speaking of what all christians should be experiencing, and what Christ was speaking of, when He taught...

"14:19
"A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.

14:20
At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

Having been set free from the condemnation of the Law, and the burden of having our rightstanding with God determined by how well we keep the law, we are now able to live in the goodness of the Holy Spirits empowering, as He produces fruit in our lives. Its here where legalists many times miss it, and a sort of "blind spot" occures.

We never advocate being freed from the Law, so that "whoopeee!...its sin time!" No. We are completly freed from the Law, and completly secure of our eternal standing, so that we can walk in the goodness of the Holy Spirits guiding as He produces fruit in our lives.

A legalist simply does not trust the Holy Spirit. A legalist thinks the Holy Spirit cant get the job done...the Law must employed to keep people in fear and keep them "busy busy busy" working for their salvation...while all that while God is saying...

"There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His"

Its not inactivity, however...

"3:11
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." F8

3:12
Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." F9

3:13
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"*),

3:14
that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Notice it does not say at the begining of that passage that the just shall be saved by faith..(although that is the only way we can be)...but rather that we shall live by faith.

We will live out our christian lives by...faith.

And then it immedietly says that the Law is NOT of faith.

I dont know how can can make it any clearer that we do not live out the christian live as lawkeepers. Because, as has been shown in other posts, the purpose of the Law is to CONDEMN us.

And then drive us to Christ.

After we see our desperate situation, we embrance Christ. Initially we embrace Him to save us from hell, but then...after that, we find that He wants us to continue to embrace Him to live out the christian life FOR us, and THROUGH us.

He is the living water than flows through us...

"Whoever drinks of this water will thirst agin. But whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into eternal life"

And that brings us right back to Paul, when he said...

"Its no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me"

And I say that every day. We all should make that confession every day.

"do you now commit adultery, steal, murder, worship idols?"

Is someone living in the goodness of resurrection life...the Lord Jesus Christ living through them and producing the fruit of the Holy Spirit...going to be doing those things?

Thats why its so frustrating to hear legalists bring up the old "Oh so you can sin all you want, adultery drinking and stealing...and still go to heaven!!"

Its so silly, and it gets so tiresome to hear it. But they just cant think any other way.

They are Law keepers...even though they are free.

They "work work work"...even though Christ wants to do all that work for them.

And the thing is, I CAN sin all I want. I really can.

But I DONT WANT TO any more. I drink all the alchoholic beverarges that I want...which is none. I smoke all the reefer and cigarettes I want...which is none. I commit all the adultery I want...which is none.

How can a man or woman be in a love affair with sin...when they are in a love affair with Jesus Christ?

I'm not perfect, just like everyone else alive on planet earth. But when I mess up, I recognise what I have done, and get right back on the pathway of truth. The pathway filled with fruit. The fruit of the Holy Spirit.

But ALWAYS...ALWAYS...ALWAYS...its a pathway of complete 100% freedom, and complete 100% security.

God will have it no other way. God does not have "employees"...He has dearly loved children.

Hope that helps a little bit.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

BrotherBob,

"D28;
Quit adding me.

Honestly, I dont know what you mean when you say I am "adding" you.

????

"You have not right to do that. Who are you that would judge another man's servant. I am judged of God only. "just like you" is words of yours that are untruths for you know not me nor my life so stick to your own life and leave mine alone."

So you are still claiming that you are sinless, huh Bob?

"You answered "Yes" to all the sins and I do hope you knew I meant were you committing those after being saved for if the answer is still "Yes" .............."

YES YES YES, a million times YES!

I absolutly...unequivicably...and with complete surety meant every word I said and all of it is since I have been born again.

And I PRAISE GOD! \o/ that although I am still a work in progress...just like you...the "old man" continues to DECREASE and decrease, while the "New Man", which is nothing less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself living in and through me, continues to increase AND INCREASE through the good and wonderful working and renewing of the Holy Spirit in my life.

THANK YOU for causing the discourse to go in this direction, for I am being BLESSED BIG TIME!

I agree whole heartedly with the apostle Paul, who said...

"For I through the Law, died to the Law, that I might live to God. I am crucified wuth Christ, It is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me. And the life that I live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who gave Himself for me"

Praise God for new life!

(By the way, Brother Bob. Are you aware that the Apostle Paul referred to Himself as the "chief" of all "sinners", and he said that after being born again?)

In~His~Grace~

Mike