what happens if you die while you're sinning? Pt. 2

[D28guy]

BrotherBob,

"So, we have a different creation now?"

No, Bob. One creation. But God deals with his people in different ways during different periods of time, or "dispensations".

Such as...

God used to have animal sacrifices. Sheep, calves, etc. We dont sacrifice animals anymore, do we?

Do you believe we live in a "different creation" now, with that change in how God deals with His people?

I didnt think so.

"You still don't get it do you."

Leaving life in the Spirit, for Lawkeeping...which God ended 2000 years ago???

No. And I never will.

"You keep saying that I am saying the Law gives life but that is your way out, when if fact I am saying by the Grace of God which saves us the Law is in our hearts and minds therefore the righteous of the law is fulfilled in us which means not to transgress the law for that would be sin."

No, thats lawkeeping and God ended that way of life 2000 years ago.

"who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life"

And...

"But now we have been delivered from the Law, having died to whet we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit, and not the oldness of the letter"

We now are to spend our lives "renewing our minds", which will effect our lifestyle, through the renewing of the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,

Mike

 

[BobRyan]

I am going to throw in my two cents on Romans 3 -- then Romans 2. The Gospel is seen in both - but it is "explicitly mentioned" in Romans 2.

AS for the subject title - I don't believe in OSAS but I also don't believe that each time you sin "you are lost again".

So if you want to discuss Law vs Grace and use this thread then ok.

If you want to discuss OSAS maybe we should start another thread on it.

Should we open Romans 3 as its own thread?

Romans 2 and 3 as a single thread?

What is your pleasure?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

Mike

I think you are fighting against something that you dont need to be fighting against, namely, the Law of God.

I think that what you dont realize is that Walking in the Spirit is the SAME THING as keeping the Law, except that the Spirit of God is writing the 10 Commandments on the heart.

Galatians 5:
13: For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15: But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Do you understand now that when we crucify our sin,,, crucify the flesh... and begin walking in the Spririt... producing the fruits of the Spirit (love, defined in the Bible as the ten commandments -Romans 13:8-10) - that THEN we are no longer "Under the CONDEMNATION OF that law"? Why? because... Galatians 5 verse 22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

There IS NO LAW against love! Love IS the Law, the Law IS love! so when we begin keeping the law, THEN we are no longer "under the condemnation of the law of sin and death" you see? Why? BECAUSE WE ARE NO LONGER VIOLATING THAT LAW! Now if someone tries to teach you that the Bible says we are now free from KEEPING THE LAW... they show their ignorance of what "walking in the Spirit" means.

 

[D28guy]

Claudia,

"There IS NO LAW against love! Love IS the Law, the Law IS love! so when we begin keeping the law, THEN we are no longer "under the condemnation of the law of sin and death" you see?"

The problem is that nobody can "keep" the Law, and nobody does.

I dont, you dont, Brother Bob doesnt, Bob Ryan doesnt, DHK doesnt...nobody for 6-10,000 years has kept it.

You guys say "I keep the Law", but what you mean is "I try to keep the Law."

"Why? BECAUSE WE ARE NO LONGER VIOLATING THAT LAW!"

YES YOU ARE violating it, Claudia. You have admitted several times that you are not sinless, so that means you DO NOT KEEP THE LAW.

You are redefining "keeping the Law" as...

"I like the Law" or "I try to keep the Law" or "I hold the Law in high regard" or "I do pretty good with the Law", but that is not what God expects of those living under that thing. God demands perfection.

God says that quick lustful thought condemns you as an adulterer. Inordinant anger means you are guilty of murder. If you violate the least of the Law, you are guilty of breaking them all. etc etc etc.

"Now if someone tries to teach you that the Bible says we are now free from KEEPING THE LAW... they show their ignorance of what "walking in the Spirit" means."

Noooooo, you guys are refusing to believe God because for some reason you want to cling to something that God designed to condemn you. And He says that once you are born again the Law has done its work.

He makes it so clear. He says it in so many ways.

He says we are "DEAD to the Law", no longer "UNDER the Law", "FREED" from the Law, He says the Law is "OBSOLETE", He says the Law is "PASSING AWAY", He says the Law "KILLS", He says sinful passions are "AROUSED by the Law", He calls it the "Law of SIN AND DEATH", He calls it a "ministry of CONDEMNATION", etc etc etc.

We are to walk in the "newness of the Spirit", and not the "oldness of the letter", and God over and over and over and over again contrasts the 2 and makes clear that we can live under one, or the other...but not both.

The only thing left for the Law to do is to be a moral standard (to help define good and evil), but we dont really need it for that since we have the entire New Testament, and the non Law Old Testament for that.

God couldnt be more clear.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Bob Ryan,

"If you want to discuss OSAS maybe we should start another thread on it.

Should we open Romans 3 as its own thread?

Romans 2 and 3 as a single thread?

What is your pleasure?"

Given the subject matter I sort of feel that if there are 2 or 3 other threads as you described there will be a lot of "topic blending" going on during all the threads anyway.

But if you want to start 1 or 2 more...go for it!

Mike

 

[Claudia_T]

Why do you supposed that over and over i the new testament it says we have to "keep the commandments" then?

I am on a different laptop computer right now so I dont have my desktop Bible handy to copy and paste all the verses... but several times it says things like "if we dont keep the commandments we dont know God" and so on and so forth.

Exactly why do you think God says that to us?

 

[D28guy]

Claudia,

I somehow missed this when I responded in my last post...

You said...

"19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

People who live those kind of lifestyles are LOST PEOPLE, and lost people will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul is saying that we...SAVED PEOPLE...should not live like lost people. The Holy Spirit will be leading us in a completly different direction than how lost people live. I've never said anything different. Nobody is argueing against the fact that we should live different than the lost.

But our eternal destiny is completly secure, and our rightstanding with God is completly secure, and our security is completly based on our standing as being in Christ, and NOT on our behavior...either good or bad.

"22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

Wonderful passage of scripture.

"Do you understand now that when we crucify our sin,,, crucify the flesh... and begin walking in the Spririt, producing the fruits of the Spirit (love, defined in the Bible as the ten commandments -Romans 13:8-10) - that THEN we are no longer "Under the CONDEMNATION OF that law"?"

No. A hundred times no. A thousand times no.

Being released from the condemnation of the Law comes 1st.

We are completly released from the condemnation of the Law the instant we are born of the Spirit. Period. And we stay that way the rest of our lives, irregardless of whatever stage of growth we are in.

As we grow in grace, and "put off the old man", and "put on the new man", we more and more reap the blessings and benefits that come from living consistently with who we are.

But we grow in grace in that way from the perspective of complete security and rightstanding with God....not in order to "get" saved or to "stay" saved.

I have to go do some things right now so I cant post all the scriptures, but you can find them all in multitudes of my posts on theis thread.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Claudia,

I'm just now seeing that short little post of yours.

I'll be back later. Sorry!

Mike

 

[Brother Bob]

Jeepers D28; what do you believe? if the following is not keeping the law I am mistaking.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

People who live those kind of lifestyles are LOST PEOPLE, and lost people will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul is saying that we...SAVED PEOPLE...should not live like lost people. The Holy Spirit will be leading us in a completly different direction than how lost people live. I've never said anything different. Nobody is argueing against the fact that we should live different than the lost.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

There is much misunderstanding on laws and grace.

I do not agree with dispensationalism teaching.

Apostle Paul emphasis on Romans chapter 4 on Abraham. That he was saved by his FAITH long time before the laws created. Adam, Abel, Enoch, Noah, and other Old Testament saints were saved by their faith long time before the laws created.

The point is, laws cannot saved us, we do not follow whole laws, to go to heaven.

Bible always emphasis us, that salvation always through the faith only.

The purpose of laws at post Moses' era, was to show people that they are sinners. Also, God have been disciplined people by created laws.

When Christ came to earth. He came to fulfilled the laws, not destroyed them. God put it in our hearts, show that God is holy, so, therefore, we ought to be holy.

We don't have to follow all 400 or 500 laws of the Old Testament. We only follow Jesus Christ. Yet, we should follow 12 commandements(two added commandments-Love God, love one another). I consider, the ten commandments is the mostly main common laws that we should do the right thing apply to today's conditional.

Notice Gal. 5:19-21 named of sins, these are all included within Ten Commandments with main common of today's conditional. Cannot have eternal life, if we do wrong things with sins.

John 14:15 tells us, IF we love Christ, KEEP his commandments, I believe he means we ought keep 12 commandments while we love him same time. Or, if we do not his keep commandments, then that mean we do not truly love him. Eek?!

Many christians are on the way to hell, because they do not obey his commandements, and not truly love him. Why? Because of their hyprocrite.

I hope that you understand what Bro. Bob, Claudia, me and others are trying to tell you about laws.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[D28guy]

Claudia,

"Why do you supposed that over and over i the new testament it says we have to "keep the commandments" then?

I am on a different laptop computer right now so I dont have my desktop Bible handy to copy and paste all the verses... but several times it says things like "if we dont keep the commandments we dont know God" and so on and so forth.

Exactly why do you think God says that to us?"

I dont know which ones you are talking about, but with any scripture of that sort..(or any other sort for that matter)..in the new testament, we always keep in mind the basic principles that we always use when interpreting scripture. This is just "Hermanuetics 101"...

We generally interpret the vaque in light of the clear, we interpret the few in light of the many, and we interpret the scriptures in such a way that they do not contradict the foundational truths that everything else is built upon.

In the case of the topic at hand here, the truth that we have been delivered from the condemnation of the Law, and the burden of having our ability to keep the Law be the determining factor in our rightstanding with God, is forcefully...repeatedly...and overwhelmingly thundered from the scriptures.

So...we intepret those scriptures with that in mind. And it becomes crystal clear how those passages apply, after we 1st eliminate the ways in which it is impossible for them to apply.

Hope that helps.

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Brother Bob,

"Jeepers D28; what do you believe? if the following is not keeping the law I am mistaking.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

People who live those kind of lifestyles are LOST PEOPLE, and lost people will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul is saying that we...SAVED PEOPLE...should not live like lost people. The Holy Spirit will be leading us in a completly different direction than how lost people live. I've never said anything different. Nobody is argueing against the fact that we should live different than the lost."

Are you saying the scriptures I posted support "keeping the law", or what I said after that supports "keeping the law"?

If its the former, those scriptures do not support christians going back to being Lawkeepers. The admonition is that Christians should not be living like the lost. If they are living like the lost, the solution is not to revert to becoming a Lawkeeper, but rather to start taking seriously Gods admonition to "grow in grace" by "putting off" the old man, and "putting on" the new man.

If you refer to the latter, I was not supporting lawkeeping in the least. That would be a tragic and conterproductive thing to do.

I was simply promoting the truth that those christians should be doing what I just described in the previous paragraph, and that is nothing at all like the failure of going back to the Lawkeeping for our rightstanding with God.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Brother Bob]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

People who live those kind of lifestyles are LOST PEOPLE, and lost people will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Your quote not mine and flys right in the face of you saying that Christians could do such things. You are talking both ways.

You say they are lost and I got news for you the reason they are lost is because they broke the Law and sinned.


James, chapter 1
"8": A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.


blessings,

BBob

 

[Claudia_T]

I agree with Brother Bob, that is pretty silly, Mike!

 

[D28guy]

Brotherbob,

You reposted the passage of scripture I posted, with my statment after it...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

People who live those kind of lifestyles are LOST PEOPLE, and lost people will not inherit the kingdom of God.</font>[/QUOTE]You now say...

"Your quote not mine and flys right in the face of you saying that Christians could do such things. You are talking both ways.

You say they are lost and I got news for you the reason they are lost is because they broke the Law and sinned.


James, chapter 1
"8": A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Bob, this is not rocket science.

I'm not determining that anyone is saved, or that anyone is lost. Almighty God tells us who is saved and who is not in the very scriptures we are reading.

Here is the entire passage of scripture again...

"5:16
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

5:17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

Now Bob...please try and follow this.

Its clear here that God...through Paul of course...is adressing born again people.

If he were not adressing born again people, he would not be instructing them regarding how to live the christian life!

He would not be instructing them to "walk in the Spirit" or by "led by the Spirit" if they were not christians. Thats exceedingly basic. The lost cant even comprehend such stuff, much less take that advice.

Rather, if they were lost people he would be preaching the gospel to them.

Having established that, lets move on.

At this point he is going to speak to these born again people, and use lost people as an EXAMPLE...

5:19
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, F19 fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,

5:20
idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,

5:21
envy, murders, F20 drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

OK. Do you see it now?

He used the lost as an example, but NOW he is going back to adressing the born again people that he is teaching, and he is no longer using those lost people as an example....

5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

5:23
gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

5:24
And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

5:25
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."

Do you see it now? I sure hope so.

God, through Paul, is encouraging born again people to lay aside unprofitable and inconsistent attitudes and beavior, because those are the kind of things lost people do, and they...saved people...shouldnt be doing those things

Its incredibly obvious that some of these BORN AGAIN PEOPLE were in fact doing some of these things, because if they werent God would not be leading Paul to encourage them to stop!

So...we have no choice but to understand that born again people can indeed behave inconsistently with who they are, but they should not do that and God encourages them to lay that stuff aside.

SAVED people...who are still saved...should not be living LIKE THE LOST.

Grace and understanding to you,

Mike

 

[Brother Bob]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"5:16
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

5:17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now Bob...please try and follow this.

Its clear here that God...through Paul of course...is adressing born again people.

If he were not adressing born again people, he would not be instructing them regarding how to live the christian life!

He would not be instructing them to "walk in the Spirit" or by "led by the Spirit" if they were not christians. Thats exceedingly basic. The lost cant even comprehend such stuff, much less take that advice.

Rather, if they were lost people he would be preaching the gospel to them.

Having established that, lets move on.[/b]

I don't agree with you for Paul was talking to all that were there and among them were all kind of people even though it was supposed to be the church. He was trying to get them to clean up. You say we have established that but we haven't for you did not take into account in those days Apostle Paul had his hands full trying to always get them to fully accept the new and living way. There was unsaved people among them.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

People who live those kind of lifestyles are LOST PEOPLE, and lost people will not inherit the kingdom of God.

D28, You! said they were lost You! Now you trying to back down from what you said.

Its incredibly obvious that some of these BORN AGAIN PEOPLE were in fact doing some of these things, because if they werent God would not be leading Paul to encourage them to stop!

So...we have no choice but to understand that born again people can indeed behave inconsistently with who they are, but they should not do that and God encourages them to lay that stuff aside.

SAVED people...who are still saved...should not be living LIKE THE LOST.

In the first part of this post you called them lost! Now you are saying that Paul was telling the saved not to live like that, which is opposite to what you said in the beginning. I don't accept the fact they were saved that were doing those things anyway.

Blessings,

BBob

 

[D28guy]

BrotherBob,

"So, we have a different creation now?"

Oh my.

Still only one creation, Bob. (Just like the last time you asked me that odd and so very bizzare question)

"You advocate Sin.
I advocate righteous."

I advocate sin.(eyes rolling)

Utter nonsense. Mind boggling nonsense. Are you even bothering to...READ...MY...POSTS, Bob???

Bob...your legalism is about as extreme as I have ever encountered. Its almost frighteningly extreme.

It appears sometimes to actually be rendering you unable to even put up coherant posts.

co·her·ent adj. "Marked by an orderly, logical, and aesthetically consistent relation of parts: a coherent essay.

I'm sorry, but its just very difficult to communicate with you sometimes.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Bob,

"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"5:16
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

5:17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now Bob...please try and follow this.

Its clear here that God...through Paul of course...is adressing born again people.

If he were not adressing born again people, he would not be instructing them regarding how to live the christian life!

He would not be instructing them to "walk in the Spirit" or by "led by the Spirit" if they were not christians. Thats exceedingly basic. The lost cant even comprehend such stuff, much less take that advice.

Rather, if they were lost people he would be preaching the gospel to them.

Having established that, lets move on.[/b]

I don't agree with you for Paul was talking to all that were there and among them were all kind of people even though it was supposed to be the church. He was trying to get them to clean up. You say we have established that but we haven't for you did not take into account in those days Apostle Paul had his hands full trying to always get them to fully accept the new and living way. There was unsaved people among them.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

People who live those kind of lifestyles are LOST PEOPLE, and lost people will not inherit the kingdom of God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

D28, You! said they were lost You! Now you trying to back down from what you said.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its incredibly obvious that some of these BORN AGAIN PEOPLE were in fact doing some of these things, because if they werent God would not be leading Paul to encourage them to stop!

So...we have no choice but to understand that born again people can indeed behave inconsistently with who they are, but they should not do that and God encourages them to lay that stuff aside.

SAVED people...who are still saved...should not be living LIKE THE LOST.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the first part of this post you called them lost! Now you are saying that Paul was telling the saved not to live like that, which is opposite to what you said in the beginning. I don't accept the fact they were saved that were doing those things anyway.

Blessings,

BBob"

Alright.

Bob, I'm sorry, but its probably best for me to just not post to you anymore. Or you to me. You are free to post to me of course, but I probably wont post back. I'm sure you are a wonderful guy and a fine person and all, but theres just no use.

In the post you are referring to there I could not possibly break it down any more simply. I mean, I felt like I was having to make it SOOOO basic. Almost down to "See Spot Run" level.

For some reason or another everthing I'm posting is just flying right over your head. Its not that you disagree...its that you dont seem to be even understanding the points I am making at all.

Your responses just dont make sense.

May God bless you abundantly in all you do,

Mike

 

[Brother Bob]

D28; If you can't see where you spoke in opposite ways about the issue of lost and saved then I guess it is hard o communicate with me.

communicate. " to convey knowledge of or information about : make known "

Blessings,

BBob

 

[BobRyan]

Question for the group - How did Law and Grace work pre-Cross?

ONE Gospel?

Where the OT saints of Heb 11 "saved by works" but now under the new Gospel we are saved by Grace??

If they were saved under the SAME Gospel as we are - then does the Gospel call for "continued rebellion" or does it call for "Obedience" as in Romans 6?

If the Gospel is about BOTH the freedom from the penalty of sin (Romans 3) AND freedom from Slavery to Sin (Romans 6) then why would we suppose that OT saints are "saved by work" or that their obligation to read and obey scripture is different than our own?

IN Christ,

Bob