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What happens if you die while you're sinning?
- Thread starter xdisciplex
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James_Newman
New Member
I don't believe I ever said a man that commits adultery is righteous.
1 John 3:7
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
If you aren't doing righteousness, you aren't righteous.
2 Thessalonians 3:14-15
14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
Brother Bob
New Member
Come on James quit taking out of context and read the whole chapter. I don't compare busybodies with adulters.
2 Thessalonians, chapter 3
6: Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
(Same Book, Chapter but you missed this part. You are getting closer though.
)
11: For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
12: Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
13: But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
14: And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
15: Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
2 Thessalonians, chapter 3
6: Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
(Same Book, Chapter but you missed this part. You are getting closer though.
11: For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
12: Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
13: But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
14: And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
15: Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
James_Newman
New Member
You apparently don't compare them with the covetous either, but you have the same command to separate from them.
1 Corinthians 5
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Can a man be covetous and be saved? Then why not an adulterer?
1 Corinthians 5
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Can a man be covetous and be saved? Then why not an adulterer?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Brother Bob:I don't know any Christians who commit adultery.
HP: This sets up an interesting scenario. Are you saying one who has believed in Christ and been baptized in His Spirit cannot commit adultery, I wonder if such a one could steal? Could they bear false witnesss? Could they fail to love God or their fellowman with all their heart? What sins are so heinous that you feel that one who has professed Christ as their personal Savior could not do them?
This seems a bit at antipodes with those believing in OSAS and the security they profess to hold to. What kind of security in Christ does it uphold to tell someone when they sin that they have never been saved? How many times would this have to happen before one would lose all hope in becoming saved, and lose all sense of anything closely related to confidence that God would keep them?
HP: This sets up an interesting scenario. Are you saying one who has believed in Christ and been baptized in His Spirit cannot commit adultery, I wonder if such a one could steal? Could they bear false witnesss? Could they fail to love God or their fellowman with all their heart? What sins are so heinous that you feel that one who has professed Christ as their personal Savior could not do them?
This seems a bit at antipodes with those believing in OSAS and the security they profess to hold to. What kind of security in Christ does it uphold to tell someone when they sin that they have never been saved? How many times would this have to happen before one would lose all hope in becoming saved, and lose all sense of anything closely related to confidence that God would keep them?
Brother Bob it seems as though you missed this part of that verse: "if any man that is called a brother".
So it looks as though Christians can indeed be these things. And if that is the practice of their life then we shouldn't fellowship with them.
Your "know a tree by the fruit" reference I believe is referencing the verses in Matthew, which deal with that issue. And that is not dealing with Christians in general, but with false teachers.
That's what happens when we cherry pick verses out of the Bible...we can prove anything that we want to prove. But we have to take the Bible as a whole.
And the Bible tells us that Christians, who are saved as saved can be, have a choice to either walk by the Spirit or to walk by the flesh. And if the flesh is chosen there is no telling what a Christian will do.
So it looks as though Christians can indeed be these things. And if that is the practice of their life then we shouldn't fellowship with them.
Your "know a tree by the fruit" reference I believe is referencing the verses in Matthew, which deal with that issue. And that is not dealing with Christians in general, but with false teachers.
That's what happens when we cherry pick verses out of the Bible...we can prove anything that we want to prove. But we have to take the Bible as a whole.
And the Bible tells us that Christians, who are saved as saved can be, have a choice to either walk by the Spirit or to walk by the flesh. And if the flesh is chosen there is no telling what a Christian will do.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
J Jump:So it looks as though Christians can indeed be these things. And if that is the practice of their life then we shouldn't fellowship with them.
HP: Now here is a different perspective. At what point is it a practice in their life? How many times would one have to commit adultery, or how frequently to become a “practice of their life?” How would the church determine the point they would dis-fellowship them? Any Scriptures or logic that would give us a clue?
JJ:And the Bible tells us that Christians, who are saved as saved can be, have a choice to either walk by the Spirit or to walk by the flesh. And if the flesh is chosen there is no telling what a Christian will do.
HP: If that is not a license to sin, please tell what it is? Have you ever heard of the term antinomianism?
[ May 15, 2006, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Heavenly Pilgrim ]
HP: Now here is a different perspective. At what point is it a practice in their life? How many times would one have to commit adultery, or how frequently to become a “practice of their life?” How would the church determine the point they would dis-fellowship them? Any Scriptures or logic that would give us a clue?
JJ:And the Bible tells us that Christians, who are saved as saved can be, have a choice to either walk by the Spirit or to walk by the flesh. And if the flesh is chosen there is no telling what a Christian will do.
HP: If that is not a license to sin, please tell what it is? Have you ever heard of the term antinomianism?
[ May 15, 2006, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Heavenly Pilgrim ]
That's not a license to sin at all. Please don't read that into that statement, because it is not there at all. It's just the reality of the way things are.
Your sin nature has not been done away with. It doesn't go away until death. That's why there are so many warnings and enouragements to walk by the Spirit or to walk in the Spirit.
If the only thing a Christian could do was walk in the Spirit or by the Spirit we wouldn't need instructions to do so or encouragement to do so. We would just do it.
But the possibility still exists that we won't. And if we aren't walking by the Spirit then we are walking by the flesh. That's the only two options.
We are either living for God, or we are living at odds with God.
I John makes this abundantly clear, unfortunately most take it that the negatives in I John are meant of unbelievers, but that isn't the case at all.
As to the term "antinomianism" I have never heard of that. I will have to look it up
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
J Jump:Yeah Matthew 18. Go to them in private. If they don't repent then go with witnesses, and then if they don't repent take it before the church. If they don't repent then it is obviously a practice of their lifestyle and something that they plan to continue doing.
HP:Mt 18:15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault.
This verse only speaks of trespasses against one personally. It says nothing about someone committing adultery or anything else against someone else in the Church. It says nothing about becoming a lifestyle either.
Is it proper to just take a verse we find and use it as a proof text for our position if in fact it is not even related to the question at hand?
HP:Mt 18:15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault.
This verse only speaks of trespasses against one personally. It says nothing about someone committing adultery or anything else against someone else in the Church. It says nothing about becoming a lifestyle either.
Is it proper to just take a verse we find and use it as a proof text for our position if in fact it is not even related to the question at hand?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
J Jump:And if we aren't walking by the Spirit then we are walking by the flesh. That's the only two options.
HP: Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
I will be nice and give you a chance to edit your last post if you so desire.
HP: Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
I will be nice and give you a chance to edit your last post if you so desire.
HP so if someone commits adultery with my wife they haven't trespassed against me? Sure they have. If adultery is involved then there is a spouse who was trespassed against. So Matthew 18 applies.
Talking about proof texting. And then you come with one verse in Romans to say we can't walk by the flesh
That's funny.
So how do you deal with Galations 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
Seems to be pretty clear that it is possible to not walk by the Spirit.
Galations 5:18 - But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
Notice "but IF," if you are led by the Spirit. Seems pretty clear that we can be led by something else.
Galations 5:25 - If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Again there's the word IF.
Galations 6:8 - For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
So we can either sow to the flesh or we can sow to the Spirit.
Ephesians 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Ephesians 5:18 - And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,
I Thessalonians 5:19 - Do not quench the Spirit;
Seems as though you are going to have a time trying to dance around these verses. Bottom line is we can walk by the flesh or we can walk by the Spirit. That's not because I say so, but because Scripture says so.
Talking about proof texting. And then you come with one verse in Romans to say we can't walk by the flesh
So how do you deal with Galations 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
Seems to be pretty clear that it is possible to not walk by the Spirit.
Galations 5:18 - But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
Notice "but IF," if you are led by the Spirit. Seems pretty clear that we can be led by something else.
Galations 5:25 - If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Again there's the word IF.
Galations 6:8 - For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
So we can either sow to the flesh or we can sow to the Spirit.
Ephesians 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Ephesians 5:18 - And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,
I Thessalonians 5:19 - Do not quench the Spirit;
Seems as though you are going to have a time trying to dance around these verses. Bottom line is we can walk by the flesh or we can walk by the Spirit. That's not because I say so, but because Scripture says so.
Here is a worst-case scenario:
Suppose a Christian loses his job, he goes "postal" and holds several employees hostage. He kills one and then goes on a killing spree. The police arrive on the scene, and he says, "I'm gonna kill you all!" and he gets into a gun battle with the police and loses. He commited a number of sins during this incident and died sinning and didn't repent. Did he go to Heaven? I doubt it.
Suppose a Christian loses his job, he goes "postal" and holds several employees hostage. He kills one and then goes on a killing spree. The police arrive on the scene, and he says, "I'm gonna kill you all!" and he gets into a gun battle with the police and loses. He commited a number of sins during this incident and died sinning and didn't repent. Did he go to Heaven? I doubt it.
JFox1 the answer to your question lies at the very beginning...suppose a Christian. Well if the man was a Christian then he will spend eternity with God despite his actions.
If killing one person or killing 100 folks denied him eternal salvation then it's not by the blood of Christ He was saved, but by his own works. And Ephesians 2 tells us that salvation by grace through faith has nothing to do with us outside of receiving the gift. Nothing.
If killing one person or killing 100 folks denied him eternal salvation then it's not by the blood of Christ He was saved, but by his own works. And Ephesians 2 tells us that salvation by grace through faith has nothing to do with us outside of receiving the gift. Nothing.
I think the answer is KNOWN SIN.
You will not be perfect as Jesus is perfect, so people could always argue that and say "well we are all sinners because we dont measure up".
Then on the other hand you can "go postal" as JFox says...
But the question is, "was your heart on the Lord's side?"
Obviously not if you went and killed a bunch of people.
If your heart is right with God today then if you die today, you would go to heaven. (you wouldnt go to heaven that same day, but then thats another topic)
Claudia
You will not be perfect as Jesus is perfect, so people could always argue that and say "well we are all sinners because we dont measure up".
Then on the other hand you can "go postal" as JFox says...
But the question is, "was your heart on the Lord's side?"
Obviously not if you went and killed a bunch of people.
If your heart is right with God today then if you die today, you would go to heaven. (you wouldnt go to heaven that same day, but then thats another topic)
Claudia
xdisciplex
New Member
What?
You mean they have to get baptized again?
Where does the bible require a christian who committed adultery to repent and get baptized again?
Brother Bob
New Member
JFox1; Suppose he was not a Christian after all.
JJ; (I most certainly did not miss the verse "if any be called a brother". Here are those brethren you were talking about.)
Galatians, chapter 2
4": And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage
HP; (We would use the same Scripture I quoted before and withdraw from them. The church cannot forgive sin. They can forgive trespasses but not sin.)
I am shocked to find myself in the minority here saying a Christian will not commit adultery when God said if you defile the body He will destroy you. Amazing, When all this time I thought the "bride" was without spot or blemish." Truly amazing, I think I know where you all could get a lot of members!!
JJ; (I most certainly did not miss the verse "if any be called a brother". Here are those brethren you were talking about.)
Galatians, chapter 2
4": And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage
HP; (We would use the same Scripture I quoted before and withdraw from them. The church cannot forgive sin. They can forgive trespasses but not sin.)
I am shocked to find myself in the minority here saying a Christian will not commit adultery when God said if you defile the body He will destroy you. Amazing, When all this time I thought the "bride" was without spot or blemish." Truly amazing, I think I know where you all could get a lot of members!!
xdisciplex
New Member
Did someone follow him to check on him?Originally posted by Petrel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by xdisciplex:
I have heard a story of a pastor who went to hell cause he stole money from the church. What if this is true?
</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, another pastor who was dead for 3 days and saw hell and then came back.xdisciplex
New Member
So you have never seen another women and thought a lustful thought? Because this is also adultery. Or is the real,committed adultery worse than the mind adultery? Does God distinguish between those 2 things?
Anyway, we are all humans and can fall to temptations. Why should a real born again christian not be able to commit adultery? This makes no sense. A born again christian can also commit other other sins, why should adultery be something special?
I am not sure wether you're interpreting this verse correctly.
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Co 3:17 -
If any man defile the temple - This clause is not consistently translated. Ει τις τον ναον του Θεου φθειρει, φθερει τουτον ὁ Θεος If any man destroy the temple of God, him will God destroy. The verb is the same in both clauses. If any man injure, corrupt, or destroy the Church of God by false doctrine, God will destroy him - will take away his part out of the book of life. This refers to him who wilfully opposes the truth; the erring, mistaken man shall barely escape; but the obstinate opposer shall be destroyed. The former shall be treated leniently; the latter shall have judgment without mercy.