What happens if you die while you're sinning?

[James_Newman]

It's hard to argue with a bunch of scripture quotes. But as I said before, sometimes the word soul does apply to the whole being, as in Adam being created a living soul. Other times it is something distinct inside of a man.

Job 14: But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.

A man without a body is dead, whether he is a spirit or a soul or both I know not. But I don't think that means a disembodied spirit is unconscious.

Revelation 6:9-10
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Luke 16:23
23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Claudia_T: I see absolutely no thing in the Bible that says we are saved eternally because of the sacrifice of Christ, but then we get to go to some kingdom because of our works.

Ironically, the JW's have the opposite misconception.

gekko: what is needed to get to heaven?

Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will (indicative; not "may be") saved.

gekko: "25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."

what's the above scripture mean to you when it says "this do, and thou shalt live." ?

Click this link and you can download the pdf or the mp3. This is a step in the right direction. The Meaning of "Life"

Heavenly Pilgrim: Hi JJump, You sure do a lot of distinguishing between the spirit and the soul. I wonder if you could point out this clear distinction you see for those of us that might be having a little trouble following you. You wouldn’t happen to be able to verify this clear distinction in the GK could you? Thanks.

James Newman did a good job of giving passages to show that Scriptures distinguish between the two. But, the Greek word for "soul" is "psuche", and the Greek word for "spirit" is "pneuma". The word "ghost" ("phantsma") never appears with the word "Holy", but does appear twice in the NT (There's no such expression as the "Holy Ghost"). Ironically, it is translated as "spirit" in both instances that it appears, if I'm not badly mistaken.

Brother Bob: JJ; you said to show you a scripture where the soul is saved and I did and you said nothing.

No, what Jjump asked was: “If the soul is saved at the point of salvation by grace through faith please provide Scripture for this instead of Bob said so.”

Then, because you answered a different question than the one he asked, he rephrased it as such: “Brother Bob try finding a Scripture that actually speaks to what you are saying. You say that the spirit and the soul are saved at the same time.”

Then, he pointed out that, “Psalm 23 doesn't say anything about the spirit and the soul being saved at the same time.”

Claudia_T: The first thing Zaccheaus did when Jesus came around is he went and restored what he owed to everyone. He repented. THEN Jesus said "Today salvation is come to thy house"

Actually, Zacchaeus said, " if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold." He doesn't say that he restored what he owed. He said "if".

Claudia_T: your spirit is merely our breath anyway. spirit and body together is your soul.

James Newman has answered it well. Remember, the Bible tells us that even the animals have souls, but nowhere does it say they have a spirit. How then can they combine their body and spirit and be a soul?

DHK: However being a saved person doesn't guarantee that I won't sin. I will. But that doesn't mean I will lose my salvation. I won't. I may lose my fellowship with God. Sin separates us from God, but it doesn't cause us to lose our salvation.

I posted this simply because it bears repeating. You lose your fellowship, not your salvation.

Brother Bob: Should be enough Scripture to show they all stay together but I doubt it.

1 Thessalonians, chapter 5
"23": And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew, chapter 10
"28": And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Seems as if this should be enough Scripture to show you that they are separate, but I doubt it.

 

[gekko]

hopeofglory said "Ironically, the JW's have the opposite misconception."

what do the JW's have to do with this thread? or any of us for that matter?

hopeofglory said "James Newman did a good job of giving passages to show that Scriptures distinguish between the two. But, the Greek word for "soul" is "psuche", and the Greek word for "spirit" is "pneuma"."

didn't heavenly pilgrim mention J.Jump? not james newman?

hopeofglory said "Actually, Zacchaeus said, " if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold." He doesn't say that he restored what he owed. He said "if"."

yes. exactly, if he has cheated anyone - and considering nobody liked him, he did cheat people - then he would repay them. obviously he repayed people. DUH!


God is not going to send one part of us to hell - and then the other part to heaven. that is what brotherbob is trying to get across. have i gotten that brobob? please correct me if im wrong.

God bless.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Amen Claudia;

Should be enough Scripture to show they all stay together but I doubt it.

1 Thessalonians, chapter 5
"23": And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew, chapter 10
"28": And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Yes I am.
There are many commands that Christ gives us that are more like goals that we are to strive toward. We will never reach them in this life. An example is:
"Be ye perfect as I am perfect" (Mat.5:48)
"Be ye holy as I am holy."
1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

1 Peter 2:21-24 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
--Does any man love his neighbor as himself?
Do you spend as much money on your neighbors: the Afghans, the Iraqis, the Pakistanis, the Zimbawes, the Congalese, the Ethiopians, etc., as you do on yourself. Do you have as much love toward them as you do for yourself? What are you doing about it? Jesus demonstrated this command through the story of the Good Samaritan.
Does Christ give us commands that we cannot totally keep, but that we can strive to do? Yes.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Amen Claudia;

Should be enough Scripture to show they all stay together but I doubt it.

1 Thessalonians, chapter 5
"23": And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Preservation is different than sinless perfection. Sinless perfection is impossible.
Once a person is saved he is saved for all eternity, and God keeps him for he has given him eternal life and does not renege on his promises.

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
DHK

 

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by gekko:
hopeofglory said "Ironically, the JW's have the opposite misconception."

what do the JW's have to do with this thread? or any of us for that matter?

Because Claudia T has stated a misconception that is the polar opposite of the JW's, and they use the same Scripture to prove it. (Not the NWT, btw.) I find that ironic. She is blinded to the Kingdom, and all they see is the Kingdom; she tries to apply Kingdom truths to spiritual salvation, they apply spiritual salvation to Kingdom truths.

I find that quite ironic.

Originally posted by gekko:
hopeofglory said "James Newman did a good job of giving passages to show that Scriptures distinguish between the two. But, the Greek word for "soul" is "psuche", and the Greek word for "spirit" is "pneuma"."

didn't heavenly pilgrim mention J.Jump? not james newman?

I don't care who he mentioned, James Newman answered the question. That's who I was quoting in response to the question.

Originally posted by gekko:
hopeofglory said "Actually, Zacchaeus said, " if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold." He doesn't say that he restored what he owed. He said "if"."

yes. exactly, if he has cheated anyone - and considering nobody liked him, he did cheat people - then he would repay them. obviously he repayed people. DUH!

Last I checked, there aren't many tax men who are popular, whether they cheat you or not.

Now, the way it's stated may imply that he had extorted money from them. Sometimes, they would over estimate the value of property, thereby exacting more money; sometimes, they would loan money to the person, then charge them ridiculous interest. (Sounds sort of like the IRS.)

Tax collectors got into their positions by paying a lot of money, because there was a lot of money to be made by collecting them. Jews didn't like the Roman authority over them, and they especially despised any Jew who worked with them.

So, Zacchaeus was not very popular, whether or not he had cheated them.

 

[D28guy]

Claudia,

"Mike,

Ive said time and time again that Im not keeping the law perfectly perfectly perfect...

Heavens sake how many times I gotta say that? and Ive said again and again the Lord desires our heart and our loyalty,, that we WANT to obey Him... we will fall and fail... Ive said this over and over and over n the forum"

Then why did you say THIS earlier...

"Im not any longer under condemnation of the Law... WHY? because Im keeping it now!!!"

You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

When you say this...

"Ive said time and time again that Im not keeping the law perfectly perfectly perfect..."

And this...

"we will fall and fail..."

...you are admitting that you DO NOT keep the Law.

You are a failure at keeping the Law, just like me and everyone else on here.

But then you turn right around and say that you are "keeping the Law"

What God wants you to do, since you acknowledge that you are not keeping the Law, is to die to it, and start living in the freedom and liberty God desires for you, and live in the goodness of resurrection life...referred to in the scriptures as walking in the goodness of the Holy Spirit...

"3:11
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." F8

3:12
Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." F9

3:13
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"*),

3:14
that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

And...

3:22
But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.

3:24
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

3:25
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

And...

5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,* and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

5:2
Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

5:3
And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

And you have no reason to believe that being free from the Law, and walking in the goodness of the Holy Spirit, will not be effective, because...

5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

DHK said...

"No man can repent of his sins. Nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to repent of our sins. That is neither Biblical or possible.

How many of you can even remember all the sins that you have ever committed much less repent of each one of them?? Repenting of your sins is an impossibility.

Repenting is a change of mind or attitude toward God. It is a change of attitude in respect to my old life of sin and rebellion against God, and repentance toward God in a life of submission to Him as Lord. It is a turn about. It is not counting sins and feeling sorry for each one.
DHK

Very well put.

Mike

 

[D28guy]

>edit<

double post. Dont know how it happened...

 

[gekko]

hopeofglory said "Because Claudia T has stated a misconception that is the polar opposite of the JW's, and they use the same Scripture to prove it. (Not the NWT, btw.) I find that ironic. She is blinded to the Kingdom, and all they see is the Kingdom; she tries to apply Kingdom truths to spiritual salvation, they apply spiritual salvation to Kingdom truths."

still... what's JW's got to do with it? claudia's SDA... not JW...

D28guy said "DHK said...

quote:"No man can repent of his sins. Nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to repent of our sins. That is neither Biblical or possible.

How many of you can even remember all the sins that you have ever committed much less repent of each one of them?? Repenting of your sins is an impossibility.

Repenting is a change of mind or attitude toward God. It is a change of attitude in respect to my old life of sin and rebellion against God, and repentance toward God in a life of submission to Him as Lord. It is a turn about. It is not counting sins and feeling sorry for each one.
DHK

Very well put.

Mike"

not very well put - we are commanded to repent of our sins - its there in the bible - read it.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by gekko:

not very well put - we are commanded to repent of our sins - its there in the bible - read it.

Give the reference if it is in the Bible.

 

[gekko]

Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Lu 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke, chapter 5
"32": I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Matthew, chapter 3
"8": Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

2 Corinthians, chapter 7
"10": For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Mark, chapter 2
"17": When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

2 Peter, chapter 3
"9": The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Matthew 9:13 - But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 6:12 - And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luke 3:3 - And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 3:19 - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Acts 8:22 - Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

2 Corinthians 7:10 - For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Revelation 2:5 - Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Revelation 2:16 - Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:22 - Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.


and that's only a few of them i found that we had posted on this thread already.

 

[D28guy]

Gekko,

"not very well put - we are commanded to repent of our sins -"

No we are not. We are called to repent.

Repentance becomes part of our lifestyle.

Repentance involves "putting off the old man" and "putting on the new man".

Repentance involves learning more and more about living in the goodness of resurrection life, and leaving behind fleshly living.

Repentance involves realising that...

"its no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me".

And learning about how...

"a grain of wheat has to fall into the ground and die. But after it dies produces much grain".

And understanding that as we turn more and more of ourselves over to Christ we will discover what He meant when He said...

"Whoever drinks of this(natural) water will thirst again, but he who drinks of the water that I give him will never thirst. But the water that I give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life"

Repentance is a lifestyle. A lifestyle of turning from death to life, from unprofitable to profitable, from unbelief to trust, from self sufficiencey to Christ sufficiency, from pride to humility, from dead works to living water, and from law to grace.

Someone stuck on "Ooops, I just had a lustful thought! I cast those away from me now, God, and promise I'll never have a lustful thought again" is pretty much still in kindergarten.

(and usually still living under the Law.)

And...anyone who thinks that being sure to catch every sin, and confess and repent of every one in order to stay saved, is so far out of touch as to actually question whether they are even born again.

(I'm not saying they arent, mind you. Just saying it sure causes one to wonder)

In~His~Grace~

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Gekko,

"Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Lu 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke, chapter 5
"32": I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Matthew, chapter 3
"8": Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

2 Corinthians, chapter 7
"10": For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Mark, chapter 2
"17": When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

2 Peter, chapter 3
"9": The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Matthew 9:13 - But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 6:12 - And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luke 3:3 - And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 3:19 - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Acts 8:22 - Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

2 Corinthians 7:10 - For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Revelation 2:5 - Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Revelation 2:16 - Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:22 - Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.


and that's only a few of them i found that we had posted on this thread already.

Every one of those supports perfectly what DHK and I are saying.

Still waiting for one that says we have to...

"Repent of all our sins"

(as if we could even name them all)

Mike

 

[gekko]

"We are called to repent."

called - commanded. what's the diff.?

"And...anyone who thinks that being sure to catch every sin, and confess and repent of every one in order to stay saved, is so far out of touch as to actually question whether they are even born again." - "(as if we could even name them all)"

and that's why king david asked forgiveness for the sins done in secret - the ones he did not catch. hmm?

"Repentance is a lifestyle. A lifestyle of turning from death to life, from unprofitable to profitable, from unbelief to trust, from self sufficiencey to Christ sufficiency, from pride to humility, from dead works to living water"

and you don't believe God commands us to be holy even as he is holy?

or you'd rather put it that God calls us to be holy... yeeesh.

 

[gekko]

and who's saying we have to name every single sin when we repent? where in tarnations did that come from?

 

[gekko]

even God repented.

what kind of previous lifestyle did God have? hmm?

 

[D28guy]

gekko,

"and who's saying we have to name every single sin when we repent? where in tarnations did that come from?"

I dont think anyone has brought up *verbally* naming them, but regarding the claim that we have to "repent of all our sins", that came...

From you, back about 3 or 4 pages or so...

"Lets take a man at the alter that has just got serious with God and has repented of all sins that are past..."

Remember now?

DHK responded that we are never told in the scriptures to "repent of all our sins", and off we went!...

Mike

 

[gekko]

i never said that...

 

[gekko]

so you believe we only have to repent of some of our sin?