What Identifies A Christian As A Baptist?

[Charlie24]

.

There is in fact a disagreement what that "one baptism" refers to.
I am of the persuasion the term baptism without specifying being of the Spirit in some way is water immersion.

It is in the sense that water baptism cannot be separated from the one true baptism of our salvation, which is the immersion into Christ in the spiritual realm.

Every Baptist I know see's water baptism as the symbol of our faith in Christ. By the way, I am a Baptist.

Water baptism is the outward expression of what took place in the heart spiritually when we were saved.

It is the visible evidence of our baptism into Christ, that we have accepted Christ as our Saviour.

 

[ChristB4Us]

Once again, the very word "baptism" means "immersion." To say in Greek that you have to baptize by immersion would be saying, "You have to immerse by immersion." That makes no sense. To say in Greek, "I baptize by immersion" would look like this: βαπτίζω βαπτισμῳ. It's the verb and noun version of the same meaning! To make it an imperative (command), as in "You must baptize by immersion" is almost the same. It would look like: βαπτίζεις βαπτισμῳ. So OF COURSE the Bible never commands "baptism by immersion" ("immersion by immersion").

To say that "sprinkling" or "pouring" is a mode of baptism is like saying, "Our church immerses by pouring" or "Our church immerses by sprinkling." That's absurd!

Then how do you apply the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Could that be the reason why Paul did not push water baptism but preach the gospel instead?

1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[John of Japan]

Then how do you apply the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

It's hard to answer this without knowing what you believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is. It's actually a rare term in Scripture. I believe, following R. A. Torrey and others, that it is the empowering for service--the Holy Spirit gives power to serve God. It is one metaphor of several that speak of the Holy Spirit having complete control over the believer. Other metaphors are: filling, coming upon, being endued (clothed), etc.

Could that be the reason why Paul did not push water baptism but preach the gospel instead?

1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

As a former church planting missionary (Japan), I know exactly what Paul was doing when he decided not to baptize many in Corinth. In fact, the context tells us. He was doing his best to avoid the factionalism of Paul-followers versus supposed Christ-followers versus Apollos-followers.

New believers in some people groups have the tendency to put the missionary or Bible teacher on a pedestal, and that can be devastating to a new church. So if the missionary is wise, he will get nationals leading the work as soon as possible. The church planting missionary's task is to get national leadership in charge as soon as possible. This is called the indigenous principle in missiology.

 

[kyredneck]

the baptism of the Holy Spirit

49 And behold, I send forth the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city, until ye be clothed with power from on high. Lu 24

8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
6 And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying, Behold, are not all these that speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judaea and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia,
10 in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God. Acts 2

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 10

2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
3 saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction. And these six brethren also accompanied me; and we entered into the man's house:
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, even as on us at the beginning.
16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Acts 11

 

[ChristB4Us]

49 And behold, I send forth the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city, until ye be clothed with power from on high. Lu 24

8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
6 And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying, Behold, are not all these that speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judaea and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia,
10 in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God. Acts 2

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 10

2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
3 saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction. And these six brethren also accompanied me; and we entered into the man's house:
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, even as on us at the beginning.
16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Acts 11

I am aware of the baptism with the Holy Ghost at our salvation moment, but my point to John of Japan is this emphasis on water baptism for that immersion as I believed was misapplied in Romans 6:3-4 to be about water baptism, Romans 6:3-4 can always be applied to the baptism with the Holy Ghost which every saved believer has received by faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[37818]

.

I am aware of the baptism with the Holy Ghost at our salvation moment, but my point to John of Japan is this emphasis on water baptism for that immersion as I believed was misapplied in Romans 6:3-4 to be about water baptism, Romans 6:3-4 can always be applied to the baptism with the Holy Ghost which every saved believer has received by faith in Jesus Christ.

The misinterpretation of the Greek εις "into" to wrongly mean "in order to," or "to cause."

 

[ChristB4Us]

.

The misinterpretation of the Greek εις "into" to wrongly mean "in order to," or "to cause."

Can you clarify your comment in relation to what I was commenting about? I am not following you.

 

[John of Japan]

I was referring to how you seem to define baptism as meaning only immersion and yet what some Baptists refer to Romans 6:3-4 for, they should consider that it will always applies to the baptism with the Holy Spirit, right?

I don't "seem to" define baptism as meaning only immersion. You are not paying attention to what I am saying. Every single Greek-English lexicon or dictionary I have (and I have a dozen or more since I teach Greek and am a translator) defines the Greek baptizo, from which we get the English word "baptize," as "immerse." There is no other legitimate meaning for the word. Translators transliterate it as "baptize" so they can avoid offending denominations that sprinkle or pour.

At this point we can safely say that you are not a Baptist, since you insist on other meanings and modes than immersion for baptism. I trust you'll be honest now and not post in the Baptist forums.

I ....

You just called me an apostate.

I do not know what you mean by nationals, let alone national leadership when each believer is to be submissive to the Head of the church...."

The term "nationals" is not a theological term. It is a perfectly legitimate term used in missiology. By your objection to it, I see that you know little to nothing about worldwide missions. It is the word missionaries use to refer to the people group they are seeking to reach for Christ. Thus, when I was a missionary in Japan, the Japanese were the "nationals" I was telling about Christ. It was my goal, and that of every other biblical missionary I know, to get the leadership (pastor, Bible school teacher, etc.) into the hands of the nationals as soon as possible. This is exactly the missiology of the New Testament.

 

[ChristB4Us]

I don't "seem to" define baptism as meaning only immersion. You are not paying attention to what I am saying. Every single Greek-English lexicon or dictionary I have (and I have a dozen or more since I teach Greek and am a translator) defines the Greek baptizo, from which we get the English word "baptize," as "immerse." There is no other legitimate meaning for the word. Translators transliterate it as "baptize" so they can avoid offending denominations that sprinkle or pour.

At this point we can safely say that you are not a Baptist, since you insist on other meanings and modes than immersion for baptism. I trust you'll be honest now and not post in the Baptist forums.

Actually, you are the one insisting on your meaning that baptism is immersion for why my point about the baptism of the Holy Ghost does the same immersion to the believer without water baptism.

You just called me an apostate.

I was speaking on how the filling of the Holy Spirit can only be a one time event and that is when we are born again of the Spirit and to point out that which is an apostate calling as departing from the faith in Jesus Christ in seeking to receive the Holy Spirit by a sign and so if that shoe fits, you just applied His words to yourself.

I had hoped that you had grown since last we had exchanged but I see you are still clinging to that Pentecostal / Charismatic mindset whether you recognized it or not.

If you disagree, then how do you defer from identifying with the Pentecostals & Charismatics as being Baptist? What keeps the Pentecostals and Charismatics from bringing their practice into your Baptist church?

The term "nationals" is not a theological term. It is a perfectly legitimate term used in missiology. By your objection to it, I see that you know little to nothing about worldwide missions.

Hardly an objection but asking for your explanation of your use of the term nationals.

It is the word missionaries use to refer to the people group they are seeking to reach for Christ. Thus, when I was a missionary in Japan, the Japanese were the "nationals" I was telling about Christ. It was my goal, and that of every other biblical missionary I know, to get the leadership (pastor, Bible school teacher, etc.) into the hands of the nationals as soon as possible. This is exactly the missiology of the New Testament.

Well, I know some people think higher of themselves than they ought but using your knowledge to put down others is hardly worthy of the call of any missionary, but thanks for explaining your use of the term nationals.

Romans 12:1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

At any rate, we are not like-minded in Christ because of the apostasy you admitted you are in, even though you are still my brother.

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:

2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.

5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;....

.....14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

 

[ChristB4Us]

49 And behold, I send forth the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city, until ye be clothed with power from on high. Lu 24

8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
6 And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying, Behold, are not all these that speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judaea and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia,
10 in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God. Acts 2

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 10

2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
3 saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction. And these six brethren also accompanied me; and we entered into the man's house:
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, even as on us at the beginning.
16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Acts 11

Thanks for confirming my point about the baptism of the Holy Spirit that can also be applied as the immersion of the believer without water baptism.

 

[John of Japan]

Actually, you are the one insisting on your meaning that baptism is immersion for why my point about the baptism of the Holy Ghost does the same immersion to the believer without water baptism.

I was speaking on how the filling of the Holy Spirit can only be a one time event and that is when we are born again of the Spirit and to point out that which is an apostate calling as departing from the faith in Jesus Christ in seeking to receive the Holy Spirit by a sign and so if that shoe fits, you just applied His words to yourself.

I have not posted anywhere here comparing water baptism with the baptism of the Spirit. I will only say they are two different things. You are guessing at what I believe about that.

I had hoped that you had grown since last we had exchanged but I see you are still clinging to that Pentecostal / Charismatic mindset whether you recognized it or not.

If you disagree, then how do you defer from identifying with the Pentecostals & Charismatics as being Baptist? What keeps the Pentecostals and Charismatics from bringing their practice into your Baptist church?

You are completely speculating about what I believe, if not lying.

I am not a Charismatic and I am not a Pentecostal and I completely and absolutely oppose their speaking in tongues. When I was church planting in Japan I had Charismatics seek to destroy my church three times. One of those times I told the couple they could not come to our worship service any more. The other times I faced other difficulties with them.

Hardly an objection but asking for your explanation of your use of the term nationals.

One who knows about foreign missions in the slightest knows what "national" means in missions.

Well, I know some people think higher of themselves than they ought but using your knowledge to put down others is hardly worthy of the call of any missionary, but thanks for explaining your use of the term nationals.

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Romans 11:13--"I magnify mine office."

At any rate, we are not like-minded in Christ because of the apostasy you admitted you are in, even though you are still my brother.

I have not yet seen you define apostasy. What do you think it is, and why do you think I am an apostate?

 

[xlsdraw]

Actually, you are the one insisting on your meaning that baptism is immersion for why my point about the baptism of the Holy Ghost does the same immersion to the believer without water baptism.



I was speaking on how the filling of the Holy Spirit can only be a one time event and that is when we are born again of the Spirit and to point out that which is an apostate calling as departing from the faith in Jesus Christ in seeking to receive the Holy Spirit by a sign and so if that shoe fits, you just applied His words to yourself.

I had hoped that you had grown since last we had exchanged but I see you are still clinging to that Pentecostal / Charismatic mindset whether you recognized it or not.

If you disagree, then how do you defer from identifying with the Pentecostals & Charismatics as being Baptist? What keeps the Pentecostals and Charismatics from bringing their practice into your Baptist church?



Hardly an objection but asking for your explanation of your use of the term nationals.



Well, I know some people think higher of themselves than they ought but using your knowledge to put down others is hardly worthy of the call of any missionary, but thanks for explaining your use of the term nationals.

Romans 12:1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

At any rate, we are not like-minded in Christ because of the apostasy you admitted you are in, even though you are still my brother.

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:

2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.

5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;....

.....14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

IMO, you are not representing Christ well at all. Most IFB churches know exactly how to deal with your kind.

But then again, this is the "forum" called the Baptistboard. You fit right in.

 

[ChristB4Us]

IMO, you are not representing Christ well at all. Most IFB churches know exactly how to deal with your kind.

But then again, this is the "forum" called the Baptistboard. You fit right in.

And what is required of you when making a judgment like that? By pointing out the error and reproving it by scriptures.

You did none of that and so you left me unreproved as I do not know what you are talking about that you have contentions with.

 

[JPPT1974]

Hey I am a Baptist and a Christian. As really we will not have to worry about denominations. When we go to heaven. As that is what we will be very happy about. Being with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

 

[MrW]

One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

One Lord can save you, and that is the Lord Jesus.

One faith can save you, and that is faith in the Lord Jesus.

One baptism can save you, and that is the baptism by the Holy Spirit into Christ, 1st Corinthians 12:13.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@ChristB4Us
Like you (?), I was 'baptized' as a baby, in my case into the Church of England. Many years later, after I was saved (in a Plymouth Brethren church), I was asked if I wanted to be baptized. I was quite shocked at first, as I had always considered myself to be a Christian on account of my christening, and initially I looked at the Bible to find reasons why I didn't need to be. But the more I read, the clearer it became to me that baptism was by immersion, and followed conversion.
The main verses that persuaded me were:
John 3:23. 'Now John was baptizing in Aenon, near Salim, because there was much water there.'
Acts of the Apostles 2:41. 'Then those who gladly received his word were baptized....'
Acts of the Apostles 8:12. But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women [no infants] were baptized.'
Another text, which I thought helped my cause until I considered it, was Matthew 19:13-15. If infant baptism is a thing, why did the Lord Jesus not improve the moment by baptizing the babies there and then?

I understand that you don't like confessions, but here you are anyway. From the 1689 Baptist confession (XXIX:1);

Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, to be to the person who is baptized - a sign of his fellowship with Christ in His death and resurrection, of his being engrafted into Christ (1); of remission of sins (2); and of that person's giving up of himself to God through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life (3).
(1) Romans 6:3-5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27.
(2) Mark 1:4; Acts of the Apostles 22:16.
(3) Romans 6:4.

It is clear to me that water baptism is by immersion, that it should follow reasonably closely upon salvation and that the N.T. knows nothing about the unbaptized Christian. You are perfectly entitled to disagree, but if you do, you should follow the advice of @John of Japan and cease to post on the Baptist forums.

 

[ChristB4Us]

@ChristB4Us
Like you (?), I was 'baptized' as a baby, in my case into the Church of England. Many years later, after I was saved (in a Plymouth Brethren church), I was asked if I wanted to be baptized. I was quite shocked at first, as I had always considered myself to be a Christian on account of my christening, and initially I looked at the Bible to find reasons why I didn't need to be. But the more I read, the clearer it became to me that baptism was by immersion, and followed conversion.
The main verses that persuaded me were:

For the reason that water baptism is not required for salvation can be found here; 1 Corinthians 1:17-21

John 3:23. 'Now John was baptizing in Aenon, near Salim, because there was much water there.'

John preached a certain kind of water baptism which is for the remission of sins per Mark 1:4 & Luke 3:3 John the Baptist did prepare the way of the Lord for how believing in Him is how one receives the remission of sins and the baptism of the Holy Ghost per Acts 10:43-44

As John the Baptist did signify how baptism will be different with Jesus, as He will do it with fire & the Holy Ghost, per Matthew 3:11 & Luke 3:16, it stands to reason why water baptism is taking a backseat when preaching the gospel.

Water baptism is an ordinance for new converts to follow but lacking water, anyone can start to follow Jesus in being His disciples without water baptism of any kind and so the emphasis on immersion is rather moot.

Acts of the Apostles 2:41. 'Then those who gladly received his word were baptized....'

Like I said, if water baptism was available to be had, and it was then, go for it, but a saved believer can be a disciple of Jesus Christ by following Him and His words with His help. having water baptism by immersion does not in any way mean they can never backslide nor does it mean they can never be engaged in works of iniquity that will get them denied by Him & thus left behind. Water baptism by immersion accomplishes nothing but serves as a public witness at the time of conversion.

Acts of the Apostles 8:12. But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women [no infants] were baptized.'

The irony of this reference cannot be overlooked because although they believed in the "things" Philip preached about and got water baptized in Jesus's name, BUT something was amiss as they were not saved yet because they had not received the Holy Ghost yet for why Peter & John were sent down to lay hands on them to receive the Holy Ghost.

Wisdom & discernment from the Lord is needed here as "famous" Philip was replacing the "infamous" Simon the sorcerer in the region as Simon was responsible for the many that were afflicted by unclean spirits and so the Samaritans were coming to & following Philip more out f fanfare rather than coming to & believing in Jesus Christ. So not only the Samaritans were in need to lift their sights higher as it was not Philip casting out unclean spirits but the Lord Jesus Christ, so was Simon the sorcerer as he even erred in seeing Peter & john laying on of hands in giving the Holy Ghost as something they were doing that Simon could purchase with money to do the same and so Peter & john had rebuked him in lifting his sight higher to God.

Some Christians that try to promote another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, will contend that they were saved before Peter & John had come down to lay hands on them but Romans 8:9 reproves such notion.

And so this add credence that water baptism by immersion did not profit those following Philip out of fandom.

Another text, which I thought helped my cause until I considered it, was Matthew 19:13-15. If infant baptism is a thing, why did the Lord Jesus not improve the moment by baptizing the babies there and then?

I agree that infant baptism is not Biblical but that same reference can be used for why babes can come to Jesus by the Father revealing His Son to them, thus enabling them to believe in Him for salvation without water baptism of any kind, including immersion. Matthew 11:25-27 That was why He said let them freely come to Him.

to be continued

 

[ChristB4Us]

Continued from last post

I understand that you don't like confessions, but here you are anyway. From the 1689 Baptist confession (XXIX:1);

Leaving it out of the quote....

Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, to be to the person who is baptized - a sign of his fellowship with Christ in His death and resurrection, of his being engrafted into Christ (1); of remission of sins (2); and of that person's giving up of himself to God through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life (3).

**** Yet if that was actually true as applying to water baptism, then why were those Samaritans not saved as water baptized by immersion as provided from Philip?

(1) Romans 6:3-5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27.
(2) Mark 1:4*****; Acts of the Apostles 22:16.
(3) Romans 6:4.

Except for Mark 1:4 which is about John the Baptist's water baptism of repentance for the remission of sin, all those other references can easily be applied to the baptism with the Holy Ghost and therefore I believe that is actual baptism that is referred to here. Example can be found for that Galatians 3:27 reference by taking it in context.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....... 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

It is clear to me that water baptism is by immersion, that it should follow reasonably closely upon salvation and that the N.T. knows nothing about the unbaptized Christian.

Yet we had those water baptized by immersion in Jesus's name in Acts 8th chapter but they were not saved and the N.T. knows something about believers not all water baptized from how Paul deferred from water baptism in respect to the preaching of the cross as he just declared it was not his habit to water baptized but to preach the gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.......21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

You can see Paul excluding water baptism entirely in his presentation of the gospel to the Romans.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

You are perfectly entitled to disagree, but if you do, you should follow the advice of @John of Japan and cease to post on the Baptist forums.

Hopefully you can see why I have Biblical grounds to disagree with you as I believe you are misapplying some of those scriptural references to mean water baptism when I can easily see those references in regards to the baptism with the Holy Spirit that Jesus gives for all who come to & believe in Him to be saved.

As there are different false teachings circling among the "Baptist" member in this forum, and John of Japan is astray in at least one, I would not use him as a litmus test for all things Baptist. It is obvious that not all Baptists are saying the same thing no holding to the same judgment and so John of Japan nor you can say what really makes a Christian a specified Baptist.

But like Paul, we are not to be identified as a Baptist, or of Paul, or of John Calvin or of anyone other than Jesus Christ. We are not to seek the glory of the Baptist church as if they can do no wrong when we are to be followers of Jesus Christ in testifying of Him in seeing His glory.

It is too bad that this forum separates the Baptist from other Christians and as much as I would like to identify with the supposed Baptist branch that did not come out of the Catholic Church, some members identify with a creed in applying the worship of God as the Trinity which is not found in scriptures for us to do, but to honor only the Son if we wish to honor the Father as that is the standard of judgment raised on ever believer in John 5:22-23 as Jesus emphasized in coming to Him if we wish to come to God the Father for anything in prayer, fellowship, and worship. And so even if this forum consist of some Baptists that did not come out of the Catholic Church, some of the Catholic Church by way of creeds has crept in to broaden the way in how God the Father wants us to come to Him by Matthew 7:13-14 & John 10:1 & if we wish to avoid that work of iniquity, we should narrow the way back to the straight gate or risk being left behind per Luke 13:24-30.

This is going to sound like woke, but what is a Baptist?

Since not all Baptists are saying the same thing nor holding to the same judgment, then we should seek His help to identify as being a disciple of Jesus Christ in following Him rather than following a confession or a creed or a church's catechism.

What say you?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hopefully you can see why I have Biblical grounds to disagree with you as I believe you are misapplying some of those scriptural references to mean water baptism when I can easily see those references in regards to the baptism with the Holy Spirit that Jesus gives for all who come to & believe in Him to be saved.

Frankly, no I can't. I think you are being argumentative for the sake of it.
No one on this thread has suggested that water baptism is essential for salvation, but it is a commandment of the Lord Jesus Christ to His disciples, and it was plainly the practice of the apostolic Church. I repeat, the N.T. knows nothing of the unbaptized Christian. If someone lived in a place where there is no water, he would probably have no time to be baptized before he died of thirst.
If you want to join a church where water baptism is not practised, try the Salvation Army or the Quakers. But you should not post any further on the Baptist forums here.

 

[ChristB4Us]

Frankly, no I can't. I think you are being argumentative for the sake of it.

Not sure how you can defend John of Japan's stance that only legitimate Baptist church can give water baptism by immersion as that is an unbiblical teaching arguing from the silence of the scriptures and yet doing it in such a way that the RCC & the devil could cry for mimicking their enslaving methodology to a system of works that denies Him.

No one on this thread has suggested that water baptism is essential for salvation, but it is a commandment of the Lord Jesus Christ to His disciples, and it was plainly the practice of the apostolic Church.

But the emphasis on water baptism by immersion is in question. John of Japan would like to argue that is what baptism means and yet gave the same references you had where the majority of them is according to my belief tetsifies of the baptism with the Holy Ghost,

I repeat, the N.T. knows nothing of the unbaptized Christian. If someone lived in a place where there is no water, he would probably have no time to be baptized before he died of thirst.

How do you address those on their deathbeds or those dying from an injury that believe in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God has raised Him from the dead?

If you want to join a church where water baptism is not practised, try the Salvation Army or the Quakers. But you should not post any further on the Baptist forums here.

I do not believe that was ever my point nor desire, as I have been water baptized enough including water baptism by immersion in a Baptist church and so the discussion is you guys trying to prove that water baptism can only be done by immersion and according to John of Japan's stance, by a legitimate Baptist church.

John of Japan likes to call those who do not follow Jesus as never saved and even doubt the ones that fell away were ever saved to begin with. Is that your stance as well?

Discipleship and salvation has to be separate otherwise by running that race or looking yourself to follow Him as His disciple as a means to obtain salvation, then that becomes a work that denies Him for why He will deny them at the rapture but even though denied by Him, He still abides in them as He will finish His work even in those left behind that were not ready for the Bridegroom.