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What is a "Traditionalist" Baptist...

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Particular

Particular

Well-Known Member
Van said:
As shown by several posters, the Baptist view very early represented two opposing views, Christ died for everyone - the General Atonement View - and Christ died for the supposedly previously chosen Elect - the Particular Atonement View.

Traditional Baptists then share some Arminian doctrine, Christ died for everyone, and God chooses individuals for salvation based on faith, but believe in OSAS. They believe in "Soul Liberty" where individuals are able to understand and respond to the gospel. So by the numbers:
Traditional Baptists do not believe the Fall resulted in Total Spiritual Inability or if it did, then God overrode the affect with Prevenient grace.
Traditional Baptists believe in Conditional Election.
Traditional Baptists believe in General Atonement
Traditional Baptists believe we choose to believe rather than are compelled by irresistible grace.
Traditional Baptists believe once we are saved, we are always saved, Eternal Security.​
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How is it that traditionalists Baptists don't see the glaring contradictions in their theology that belittles the God they serve?
I was shocked at my self-centered and prideful thinking when I held those positions. I can hardly believe I had that view when God speaks so clearly about His Sovereign position in saving everyone He wills to save. Honestly, I feel ashamed that I held such a self-glorifying view of salvation.
 
Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Van said:
No need to debate the Traditional views, Lord knows the Calvinists disagree with many of them.
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"Calvinists" are those who follow every teaching of John Calvin.

I don't know of any on this board.;)
 
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Particular

Particular

Well-Known Member
Dave Gilbert said:
"Calvinists" are those who follow every teaching of John Calvin.

I don't know of any on this board.
I have, however, seen "Wesleyans" ( or people who look very much like them ) post here, occasionally.

Whether or not they claim to be, I've not seen.
But they do believe and teach every "point" of what John Wesley taught.
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Whoops. Misread the post.
 
Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Particular said:
Nope
Calvinists get that label because they read scripture and it just so happens that Calvin also read scripture. Upon reading scripture people came to the same understanding. What I, as a Reformed Baptist, believe is all taught in scripture.
So, your claim is entirely false. I suspect you cling to it for a reason, but I have no idea why. Would you care to share why you hold a false assertion?
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Partly because John Calvin never departed, in His teachings, from infant baptism, a-millenialism, and several other things that the Roman Catholic Church historically taught and ( as far as I know ) still teaches.

He also was reported to have supported putting people to death for heresy, which the Bible does not teach.
It teaches rejection, not capital punishment for false teaching.

As I see it, John Calvin does not speak for me, and should not speak for any of God's children.

Jesus Christ and His words alone are all that we should focus on.
Our allegiance is to Him and Him alone.
His teachings, and His alone.

The only name we as believers should embrace, is "Christian".
 
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Particular

Particular

Well-Known Member
Dave Gilbert said:
Partly because John Calvin never departed, in His teachings, from infant baptism, a-millenialism, and several other things that the Roman Catholic Church historically teaches.

He also was reported to have supported putting people to death for heresy, which the Bible does not teach.
It teaches rejection, not capital punishment for false teaching.

As I see it, John Calvin does not speak for me, and should not speak for any of God's children.

Jesus Christ and His words alone are all that we should focus on.
Our allegiance is to Him and Him alone.
His teachings, and His alone.

The only name we as believers should embrace, is "Christian".
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Dave, I hope you saw my changed post. I misread your original post. My apologies.
 
Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Particular said:
Whoops. Misread the post.
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Particular said:
Dave, I hope you saw my changed post. I misread your original post. My apologies.
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No problem, sir.
I forgive you.;)

I also changed my post from what you quoted, and shortened it.
However, I don't have any issue with you leaving things as-is.

I need to think more about what I post, and stop relying on the "edit" feature as much.:)
 
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Reformed

Reformed

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dave Gilbert said:
"Calvinists" are those who follow every teaching of John Calvin.

I don't know of any on this board.;)
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Dave, not to take us down a rabbit trail, but I have no problem with the term Calvinist because (for the Baptist) it means nothing more than the doctrines of grace. Opponents of Calvinism like to attach Servetus, infant baptism, Presbyterian ecclesiology et al. to the term. That is their problem, not mine. Well-meaning Calvinistic Baptists run from the term because they do not want to be tainted with those false assumptions. In my humble opinion, they unnecessarily allow themselves to be put on the defensive.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Reformed said:
Dave, not to take us down a rabbit trail, but I have no problem with the term Calvinist because (for the Baptist) it means nothing more than the doctrines of grace. Opponents of Calvinism like to attach Servetus, infant baptism, Presbyterian ecclesiology et al. to the term. That is their problem, not mine. Well-meaning Calvinistic Baptists run from the term because they do not want to be tainted with those false assumptions. In my humble opinion, they unnecessarily allow themselves to be put on the defensive.
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This is true. They resort to this because they can't actually argue against the position.
 
Reformed

Reformed

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
davidtaylorjr said:
This is true. They resort to this because they can't actually argue against the position.
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And because some* non-Calvinists do this, I do not engage with them. I am not going to reward intellectual ignorance with a response.

*I do not want to impugn all non-Calvinists because that would be wrong.
 
Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
davidtaylorjr said:
Of course, where is the contradiction in the Doctrines of Grace?
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As a former "Traditionalist", I'll offer this, David...
The contradiction is many-fold:

1) If God decides to save some and not offer salvation to all, then that makes Him a respecter of persons.
2) If God chooses to save men, then He is not being gracious to everyone... Grace would be allowing men to make the choice.
3) If Jesus died only for the elect, then "world" does not mean every man woman and child in 1 John 2:2.
4) If God loved Jacob and hated Esau literally, then He is again, a respecter of persons.
5) If God decides a person's fate, then He did not give them a chance to repent.
6) If God chooses who to save, then man does not have free will.
7) If the Lord appoints sinful men to destruction ( 2 Peter 2:12 ), then He is violating their free will.
8) If He makes them born again without their permission, then He is violating their free will.
9) If man is "totally depraved" and unable to obey God, then he is not responsible for his sins.
10) If God's grace is "irresistible", then God violates man's free will.
11) If Jesus died only for God's children, then that makes the offer of salvation null and void, and makes Him not the Saviour of all men ( 1 Timothy 4:10 ).
12) If God loves one and hates another, then He will not have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth ( 1 Timothy 2:4-6 ).
13) If God hates one man and loves another, then He is not love ( 1 John 4:7-8 ) and does not love the world ( John 3:16 ).
14) If men have to persevere in the faith to be saved, then that is works.
15) God giving men the chance to repent and believe makes salvation 100% of God.
16) God created men with free will, otherwise they are pre-programmed robots.

Those are a few that I've heard over the years.
As I see it, thinking in "Traditionalist" terms and having been taught them from the pulpit for almost 3 decades, helps to understand the position.;)
 
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Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Dave Gilbert said:
As a former "Traditionalist", I'll offer this, David...
The contradiction is many-fold:

1) If God decides to save some and not offer salvation to all, then that makes Him a respecter of persons.
2) If God chooses to save men, then He is not being gracious to everyone... Grace would be allowing men to make the choice.
3) If Jesus died only for the elect, then "world" does not mean every man woman and child in 1 John 2:2.
4) If God loved Jacob and hated Esau literally, then He is again, a respecter of persons.
5) If God decides a person's fate, then He did not give them a chance to repent.
6) If God chooses who to save, then man does not have free will.
7) If the Lord appoints sinful men to destruction ( 2 Peter 2:12 ), then He is violating their free will.
8) If He makes them born again without their permission, then He is violating their free will.
9) If man is "totally depraved" and unable to obey God, then he is not responsible for his sins.
10) If God's grace is "irresistible", then God violates man's free will.
11) If Jesus died only for God's children, then that makes the offer of salvation null and void, and makes Him not the Saviour of all men ( 1 Timothy 2:4-6 ).
12) If God loves one and hates another, then He will not have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth ( 1 Timothy 2:4-6 ).
13) If God hates one man and loves another, then He is not love ( 1 John 4:7-8 ) and does not love the world ( John 3:16 ).
14) If men have to persevere in the faith to be saved, then that is works.
15) God giving men the chance to repent and believe makes salvation 100% of God.
16) God created men with free will, otherwise they are pre-programmed robots.

Those are a few that I've heard over the years.
As I see it, thinking in "Traditionalist" terms and having been taught them from the pulpit for almost 3 decades, helps to understand the position.;)
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I used to be on that side of the fence too by the way.
 
Squire Robertsson

Squire Robertsson

Administrator
Administrator
I fear this thread is suffering from massive thread drift. The question as I read the OP is what is a Traditional Baptist. The last few pages have been about why they are wrong or right.
 
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