Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Much discussion goes on concerning what is a work and what is not a work, but I have yet to read where anyone has defined what a work is. What is a work to you? How would you define it?
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What is a Work?
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
Much discussion goes on concerning what is a work and what is not a work, but I have yet to read where anyone has defined what a work is. What is a work to you? How would you define it?
From Strong's
εργον ergon er'-gon from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:—deed, doing, labour, work.
Faith does not fit that definition. Faith is intangible.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Just when we land on a discussion that I have been contemplating for a while, I am about to get busy with work that will take me away from the board for a few days. I will try to keep up with the post the best I can.
Rick, it would seem to me that your notion of works would be centered on salvation or Gods favor. I can definitely see where that is one use of the word, but possibly we might broaden our scope a bit.
DHK defined it with a dictionaries definition. It is a bit broader in scope. I am specifically interested in the scope of a work being defined ":by implication, an act: deed, doing," .....
I am reminded of Jesus telling some that lust in ones heart is to God paramount to committing the act, and hate in the heart is equated to murder. If God sees both the act of murder, and the act of lust as equivalent to what anyone here would denote as a work, i.e. lust and murder, from a moral standpoint, what is the difference? In reality would not God see the acts committed by the will on precisely the level as outward acts? Why could not the inner choices of the will, that God states are paramount and equal to any outward act, be classified as a work, in the sense of the will itself committing a deed, or an act of doing that acccording to God is as evil as any outward work or act?
Rick, it would seem to me that your notion of works would be centered on salvation or Gods favor. I can definitely see where that is one use of the word, but possibly we might broaden our scope a bit.
DHK defined it with a dictionaries definition. It is a bit broader in scope. I am specifically interested in the scope of a work being defined ":by implication, an act: deed, doing," .....
I am reminded of Jesus telling some that lust in ones heart is to God paramount to committing the act, and hate in the heart is equated to murder. If God sees both the act of murder, and the act of lust as equivalent to what anyone here would denote as a work, i.e. lust and murder, from a moral standpoint, what is the difference? In reality would not God see the acts committed by the will on precisely the level as outward acts? Why could not the inner choices of the will, that God states are paramount and equal to any outward act, be classified as a work, in the sense of the will itself committing a deed, or an act of doing that acccording to God is as evil as any outward work or act?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
On the flip side, lets examine good that comes from the heart according to God.
2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
Here we have the admonition that if in fact the mind is willing, desirous to fully intend to carry something out, God in reality accepts that willing heart as if though the thing willed was already accomplished. Why was not this act of the will classified as a good work by God, for He says he judges it as if though it has already been accomplished, in precisely the same manner He judges outward acts carried out to their intended end?
2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
Here we have the admonition that if in fact the mind is willing, desirous to fully intend to carry something out, God in reality accepts that willing heart as if though the thing willed was already accomplished. Why was not this act of the will classified as a good work by God, for He says he judges it as if though it has already been accomplished, in precisely the same manner He judges outward acts carried out to their intended end?
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Getting back to DHK's posted definitions, would not a work be defined as something that is implicated as a deed or work, just as God implicates chosen intents in the mind prior to ever carrying them out, as good works and evil works?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Remember this, our mothers are almost always right, and our opinions.... well.....:thumbs:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
I cannot believe that people think that abstaining from evil is a work. Since when is not cheating on your wife a work? Since when is not stealing a work? When I wanted Jesus to save me, I confessed, and I did my best to stop sinning, yet the people here have called me a heretic for such beliefs.
It is ludicrous to think of trying to help save someone using some of the people’s beliefs here. Some here say you cannot believe on your own, but if God wants to save someone, wait around and see if it happens, because you are so totally depraved you cannot understand the English I am speaking to you with when I talk to you about salvation. Others here say to believe and confess and just make sure you do not try to stop any of that evil you are doing because God might think you are trying to earn your salvation. Can you believe it, I have been called a heretic for not believing in that. It is never okay to sin; it is not okay to sin even if you are an atheist, let alone someone seeking God to save them.
It is ludicrous to think of trying to help save someone using some of the people’s beliefs here. Some here say you cannot believe on your own, but if God wants to save someone, wait around and see if it happens, because you are so totally depraved you cannot understand the English I am speaking to you with when I talk to you about salvation. Others here say to believe and confess and just make sure you do not try to stop any of that evil you are doing because God might think you are trying to earn your salvation. Can you believe it, I have been called a heretic for not believing in that. It is never okay to sin; it is not okay to sin even if you are an atheist, let alone someone seeking God to save them.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Moriah, I hope we are on the road to coining our rhetoric on the list in a less divisive manner than some have used in the past. I certainly see signs of hope. :thumbs:
I for one believe so many have tunnel vision dealing with what works are all about. I hope that somehow we might rethink what we might have been taught or simply heard from others even pulpits that in fact might need some tweeking on the issue of works.
Can you see the points I am trying to make that God calls works, by the manner in which He judges them, even intents formed in the mind to do good or to do evil antecedent to the actual doing or carrying out of such intents, or if in fact we are ever able to actually carry out such intents?
I for one believe so many have tunnel vision dealing with what works are all about. I hope that somehow we might rethink what we might have been taught or simply heard from others even pulpits that in fact might need some tweeking on the issue of works.
Can you see the points I am trying to make that God calls works, by the manner in which He judges them, even intents formed in the mind to do good or to do evil antecedent to the actual doing or carrying out of such intents, or if in fact we are ever able to actually carry out such intents?
I think this is a very important discussion.
While I am reading what you say, there is agreement, but then there are parts where I just do not get what you are explaining. I really want to understand.
Thou shalt not commit adultery
You advocate adultery? If you transgress the command it is sin. Keeping the command is a work.
Thou shalt not steal
Stealing is a command. You transgress the command it is sin.
Keeping the command is one of the works of the law.
That is because you seem to have described "reformation" and not "regeneration."
Does it make you weary to abstain from having relations with another woman besides your wife? Do you think when Jesus said, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest,” means all those who are tired of being faithful to your wife come to me and I will give you rest? Do you think Jesus was saying all who are tired of not stealing come to me and I will give you rest? No. Jesus is speaking to those who had the law of works, for them to come to him and he will give them rest, because the works of the law is a written code with regulations, for worship, and an earthly sanctuary. The Jews had to follow these codes and regulations just to worship God. They had to give gifts and sacrifices as was required for worship in the earthly sanctuary. They were a matter of food and drink and they had to follow various ceremonial washing---external regulations. The Jews had a lot of work to worship God.
Are you saying Jesus already saved me before I had the eyes of my heart opened?
And all of those works won't get you to heaven.
There is no amount of works that will get you to heaven.
Keeping "the commands of Jesus" (whatever you may think they are) will not get you to heaven.
Salvation is not of works, not of any kind of works. Works do not save.
Keeping the Ten Commandments (abstaining from adultery, etc.) are works. They don't get you to heaven, even though some people think they do.
I can't testify for you. You know what you did; not me.
I said reformation cannot save a person. Turning from sin cannot save. Confessing sin cannot save. Repenting from sin cannot save.
Only Christ can save.
Those are not works. It is not a work to confess evil, nor is it a work to try to abstain from evil.
We must believe in Jesus. We must obey Jesus.
With your teaching, Jesus will not reveal himself. Jesus reveals himself to those who have his teachings and obey them. John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him..
John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.
John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
John 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
1 John 2:5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
1 John 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
That is the Word of God!
If you walk in His Love, DHK, then you are not committing adultery, then you are not stealing from others.
If anyone reading this wants to have a stronger relationship with Jesus, if you want Jesus to reveal himself to you, then obey his teachings.
You have the Word of God that tells you this.
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It is a work to confess. Think about it.
I used to be a Catholic. I went to confession and confessed my sins to a priest, who in turn supposedly forgave them and then gave me "penance" to 'do'. I didconfess; he did forgive; I did penance. Those are all works designed by the RCC to get one to heaven. But works cannot get one to heaven.
Confession, whether to a priest or straight to God cannot get you to heaven. It is a work.
No amount of obeying the commands of the Bible will get you to heaven. Works do not save. I have heard the testimony of many that if they keep the Ten Commandments then they will make it to heaven. That is not true.
Or, if they keep the two Great Commandments that Jesus gave, then they will go to heaven. That is also not true.
You have a false teaching.
Jesus is revealed through the word. But to the unsaved he is specifically revealed through the gospel.
Paul said:
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
--One is not saved by keeping the commands of Jesus, but by believing in Christ, the gospel.
And none of it has to do with salvation. Works do not save.
I never said you weren't.
If anyone reading these last two sentences of yours think that they can be saved simply by obeying the teachings of Jesus, like the Beatitudes or The Two Greatest Commandments, then they are deceived. One is not saved by obeying commands, (by works), but rather by putting their faith in Christ and his atoning work.
savedbymercy
New Member
The word work is the greek word ergon and means:
business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
It also is doing ! Rom 2:7
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
A work is anything accomplished or done by the mind ! Believing is done by the mind !
The mind is:
(in a human or other conscious being) the element, part, substance, or process that reasons, thinks, feels, wills,
Thats why those who say they are saved because of their freewill decision, its works salvation as well !
business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
It also is doing ! Rom 2:7
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
A work is anything accomplished or done by the mind ! Believing is done by the mind !
The mind is:
(in a human or other conscious being) the element, part, substance, or process that reasons, thinks, feels, wills,
Thats why those who say they are saved because of their freewill decision, its works salvation as well !
I was a Catholic too, and Catholics do not give up sins, they feel contrite for the sins but they do not give them up. In addition, most Catholics are born into the religion, meaning they were baptized at a couple months old. Baptism is a pledge to God that you will die to the sins of the world; infants do not understand and make such pledges.
Jesus says the Father and he will make their homes with those who have his teachings and obey them. I gave you a lot of scriptures, please do not dismiss them.
That does not make sense. You go against Jesus. I gave you many scriptures of Jesus telling you what to do, and this you deny. There is nothing more to say to you concerning this.
It is wrong for you to think you can draw the conclusion to limit what Paul was saying.
You say all those scriptures of Jesus saying obey me if you love me is not about salvation! You are not right at all. I gave the word of God. You give your own false opinion and assumptions.
Believing is the work God requires. In addition, believing is like drinking water. What kind of work is drinking water!
An unsaved man is the enemy of God. The enemy of God does not and cannot love God. That is Scriptural.
"They that are in the flesh cannot please God."
"The natural man understands not the things of God."
We are not ALWAYS IN OUR FLESH.
The Bible says we at one time did things to please our flesh. The BIBLE
ALSO SAYS but we did not come to know Christ while we were indulging in
impurity...we came to know Christ when we HEARD of him and were TAUGHT,
with regard to our former way of life, to put off our old self, which is being
corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of our
minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true
righteousness and holiness. See Ephesians 4:18-24.
Did you read that? We did not come to know Christ while we were living to
please the flesh, we came to know Christ when we heard of him and were
taught TO PUT OFF OUR OLD SELF.
We are not ALWAYS IN OUR FLESH.