What is calvinism?

[Pastor Larry]

Do you believe there is an "unpardonable sin?" There is! It is the sin of rejecting the Spirit Who is the ONLY one who can testify of God but He does so to EVERYONE, Larry. EVERYONE is "without excuse."

The unpardonable sin, in Scripture, is attributing the works of Christ to the power of Satan. Read the context and that becomes clear. It is not about an individual rejecting the Holy Spirit.

Paid and made available.

But again, the issue is that if Christ actually paid the debt for all sin, then there is no basis on which God can justly send someone to hell to pay for sins that have already been paid for. That would be an unjust God, exacting a second payment on top of the one Christ made. That's not the topic of this thread, per se, but it is an important problem with a position.

Salvation is available for ALL since ALL sins were paid for. Those who BELIEVE are the only ones who avail themselves of it though.

Yes and no. It is available to all because the atonement is sufficient for all. It does not mean that all sins were paid for in the same way. Again, the justice of God is at stake.

God sends people to hell whose sins are paid for, Larry.

This is, to me, total compromise of the justice of God.

It is their UNBELIEF that Christ can't pay for.

This is a total denial of the sufficiency of Christ's atonement. You can't say taht Christ died for all sins and then say that he didn't die for the sin of unbelief. If he didn't die for the sin of unbelief, then there is one sin he didn't die for, and that sin (in your system) is apparently "paid for" by fixing the problem humanly speaking. I totally reject that on biblical grounds.

Didncha evey wonder how God was going to make hell worse for some?

Nope, solved that issue a long time ago. But that isn't the point here.

Here's the thing -- you can't be anyone's child until you are commmitted to them like believers are committed to God! Your delineation is, thereby, flawed.

It's not my delineation. It's Christ's. Scripture presents all humanity as subjects of Satan, in his kingdom, until we are saved. I think we are seeing just how seriously your theology is flawed with statements like this, and others.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Go ahead with your "ordo salutis, pls.

Election, effectual calling, faith and repentance, regeneration, justification, baptism/union with Christ, Adoption, Sanctificaiton, Perseverance and Preservation, Glorificaiton

So Calvin says. And I admit that "good" is an adjective of the last soil. But Calvin assumes that the second 2 seeds aren't saved, too. Yet the parable says that those seeds sprouted as well! So what is the seed and what is the plant?

I don't konw what Calvin says. My comments are based on what Jesus said.

Not so. There is a seed and it germinates into a plant. The seed is the Holy Spirit which is "planted" first. Then the soils yield a plants. Life taken from the soil and the seed combine to create the plant.

I don't recall the Holy Spirit being called the seed. The Word is the seed (again, going with Scripture on that). 1 Cor 2 reminds us that the natural man does not recieve the things of the Spirit of God and cannot know them. That is the "soil" that is not prepared by the Spirit. They are unsaved and cannot understand.

Maybe Calvin should have made them. I'm not saying Calvin is complete -- I'm saying SCRIPTURE is complete. I don't see that we believe the same exact thing. Do you?

We don't believe the same thing, that's for certain. But my position is based on teh study of the Scripture as a whole. I have refused to isolate certian passages in order to protect a view. That is why I left the view you hold some 15 years ago.

I mean, that parable of the sower describe to us as well the first 4 dispensations. I'm sure you haven't considered that yet, have you? And yet, that being considered, maybe there is a whole 'nother reason for the parable of the sower.

No, the parable of the sower has nothing to do with dispensations. It deals with the human heart. That is why it says that it deals with the human heart.

If you are going to keep giving the verse, then give it all. Rom 3:23 -- "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

I have addressed it all. To sin is to come short of the glory of God. That is the definition of sin.

Infants have not sinned BUT they come short of God's glory, for sure.

So "all" haven't sinned? You accuse me of not dealing with the whole verse (which is wrong), all the while denying what the verse actually says. It doesn't say "some have sinned and all have fallen short." It says "all have sinned and fallen short." It is the same group that has sinned and fallen short.

Best to center your argument on other verses where you don't have to leave part of the verse out.

I don't have to leave part of the verse out. I didn't. I used it all and explained it. Don't make these smart aleck comments. This has been a fairly decent and civil conversation. Don't take it down hill with this type of remark.

 

[psalms109:31]

Election

Please forgive me, but election to salvation cannot happen until after faith.

Without faith you cannot enter the grace of God.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Please forgive me, but election to salvation cannot happen until after faith..

Do you have any Scripture that places election after faith? I am not aware of any, and no one here (or anywhere else that I know of) has ever been able to show one. Perhaps you will be the first.

Without faith you cannot enter the grace of God

Actually, all mankind participates in God's common grace. As he says, he causes it to rain on the just and the unjust alike, even though they don't deserve it.

However, election is not the same as "entering into the grace of God."

 

[psalms109:31]

saved

The scripture clearly states that we are saved by grace through faith.

You cannot be saved without faith.

So it is effectual preaching, faith and repentance, and then election.

It is people with faith that have been elected to salvation before the foundation of the world.

It has been that way from day 1 starting with adam and eve.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The scripture clearly states that we are saved by grace through faith.

Us Calvinists are huge on this.

You cannot be saved without faith.

Big on this too.

So it is effectual preaching, faith and repentance, and then election.

So where is this in Scripture? After all, that is what I asked for.

It is people with faith that have been elected to salvation before the foundation of the world.

And where is this in Scripture? That is what I asked for.

It has been that way from day 1 starting with adam and eve.

Just a minute ago you said it was before the foundation of the world. Now you are saying Day 1. Which is it? And where is your Scripture support?

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Romans 10:14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[Isaiah 52:7]

See you cannot be elected without hearing the message. This teaching of election before faith is hyper-calvinism. Why go out if they are already elected for salvation.


You can still believe in the love of God for the world and the hope they have through Jesus Christ. You do have good news for the world.

 

[psalms109:31]

Two choices

We can either not believe in the love of God for the world and see predestination before foreknowledge or you can continue to believe in love of God for the world and believe that God had predestined before the foundation of the world that those with faith that He foreknew will be saved. Yes faith is given to us by God through His word, but we can accept it or not accept it.

I still believe in the love of God for the world and we are the messengers of it.

 

[EdSutton]

We can either not believe in the love of God for the world and see predestination before foreknowledge or you can continue to believe in love of God for the world and believe that God had predestined before the foundation of the world that those with faith that He foreknew will be saved. Yes faith is given to us by God through His word, but we can accept it or not accept it.

I still believe in the love of God for the world and we are the messengers of it.

I would say you are offering limited false alternatives, for surely, there are variations on this theme that are wider than the two 'choices' you are suggesting.

Congrats, you 'talked me into' commenting on a thread, where I had no intention of doing so.

Ed

 

[psalms109:31]

False no

I would say you are offering limited false alternatives, for surely, there are variations on this theme that are wider than the two 'choices' you are suggesting.

Congrats, you 'talked me into' commenting on a thread, where I had no intention of doing so.

Ed

I found im my studies of the scripture when you study predestination either they believe one or the other. When I have discussed with people about it.

Maybe you can enlightening me on the right one.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Romans 10:14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[Isaiah 52:7]

See you cannot be elected without hearing the message.

Where would I see that in these verses? They don't talk about election. They don't even mention it.

This teaching of election before faith is hyper-calvinism.

No, it's not. Hyper Calvinism is typically the belief taht people will be saved without the preaching fo the gospel.

Why go out if they are already elected for salvation.

Because the elect must hear the word to be saved.

So you haven't shown any Scriptural support that one is elect after faith. Why not?

 

[skypair]

Hi Larry, :wavey:

You're nothing if not faithful, man!

The unpardonable sin, in Scripture, is attributing the works of Christ to the power of Satan. Read the context and that becomes clear. It is not about an individual rejecting the Holy Spirit.

Not specific enough. Mt 12:31 -- "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." More specifically this: Heb 10:29 -- "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

What did the people in Rom 1 do, Larry? They rejected the Spirit of God -- even "His eternal power and Godhead" were revealed and rejected. (1:20) "They KNEW God and glorified Him not." (1:21) That is UNBELIEF.

But again, the issue is that if Christ actually paid the debt for all sin, then there is no basis on which God can justly send someone to hell to pay for sins that have already been paid for.

UNBELIEF, Larry! U-N-B-E-L-I-E-F. You're "blowin' right past" the real reason some aren't saved! You're not thinking God will accept anyone who doesn't believe, are you??

Yes and no. It is available to all because the atonement is sufficient for all. It does not mean that all sins were paid for in the same way. Again, the justice of God is at stake.

Not "paid in the same way?" Are you now saying there is another way into the "sheepfold?" Or are you saying that Christ's blood wasn't sufficient?? Where do you find this "OTHER way?"

This is (sending people to hell whose sins are paid for), to me, total compromise of the justice of God.[/quote] Not at all!! It would be unjust for God NOT to forgive all sin if He offers it to some! It is total justice for God to forgive all sin and then offer to save everyone who would believe. They would be setting their own destiny -- that's fair!

This is a total denial of the sufficiency of Christ's atonement. You can't say taht Christ died for all sins and then say that he didn't die for the sin of unbelief.

Scripture says it, Larry.

If he didn't die for the sin of unbelief, then there is one sin he didn't die for, and that sin (in your system) is apparently "paid for" by fixing the problem humanly speaking. I totally reject that on biblical grounds.

Well, reject it from scripture then -- but show your source.

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

We can either not believe in the love of God for the world and see predestination before foreknowledge or you can continue to believe in love of God for the world and believe that God had predestined before the foundation of the world that those with faith that He foreknew will be saved.

Swhy are these the only two options? Why not believe that God loved the world and sent his son to save those who believe? Why not believe that God elected individuals to salvation through faith from the foundation of the world? I find both of those taught in Scripture and it is why I am a Calvinist.

I still believe in the love of God for the world and we are the messengers of it.

so you are a Calvinist? Because that's what we believe.

 

[psalms109:31]

Believe

We cannot not believe unless we hear as in we are not elected to salvation until we hear in plain english and is simple.

That it is effectual preaching, faith and repentance, and then election.

We are saved by grace through faith and we cannot be saved unless we are sent and they hear. simple.

I do not agree with your order of salvation it is not scriptual.

There is people that can be elected to salvation but are not because we are not going.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and we are messengers of it.

Why can't we just believe the word of God.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Not specific enough. Mt 12:31 -- "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." More specifically this: Heb 10:29 -- "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

Yes, but Hebrews isn't the unpardonable sin. The Matthew passage is, and in teh context, the Pharisees had just accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Satan. That is the unpardonable sin, attributing the work of the Spirit to the power of Satan.

What did the people in Rom 1 do, Larry? They rejected the Spirit of God -- even "His eternal power and Godhead" were revealed and rejected. (1:20) "They KNEW God and glorified Him not." (1:21) That is UNBELIEF.

Yes, so?

quote]UNBELIEF, Larry! U-N-B-E-L-I-E-F. You're "blowin' right past" the real reason some aren't saved! You're not thinking God will accept anyone who doesn't believe, are you??[/quote]No, but if Jesus paid for all sin, then he must have paid for the sin of unbelief. If he paid for the sin of unbelief, then God cannot justly send someone to hell for their sin of unbelief that was paid for by Christ. Think about it.

How can God send someone to hell for a sin that was paid for by Christ?

Not "paid in the same way?" Are you now saying there is another way into the "sheepfold?" Or are you saying that Christ's blood wasn't sufficient?? Where do you find this "OTHER way?"

None of the above. Christ's death is sufficient for all sins for all time. It is efficient only for those who believe. That means that the death does not pay for sins in the same way for all people.

This is (sending people to hell whose sins are paid for), to me, total compromise of the justice of God.

Not at all!! It would be unjust for God NOT to forgive all sin if He offers it to some! It is total justice for God to forgive all sin and then offer to save everyone who would believe. They would be setting their own destiny -- that's fair!

First, you want fair? How fair is it that Jesus who was innocent died for your sin? Was that fair? I don't see you complaining about that.

Second, God is not bound to offer salvation to anyone. If I offer my son a dollar bill, and don't offer it to the boy down the street, I am not unfair. He is not entitled to it and has no complaint that I don't give it.

Third, theology is determined by revelation, not by our human sense of fairness.

Fourth, if God sends someone to hell for sins that have been paid for, then God is unjust.

Scripture says it, Larry.

Where does Scripture say that Christ died for all sins but the sin of unbelief?

Well, reject it from scripture then -- but show your source.

Doesn't Scripture teach that Jesus died for all sin (I could cite numerous passages here but I wasn't aware this was debated among evangelicals)? Are you aware of a verse that omits the sin of unbelief from the deaeth of Jesus? I am not. That is why I reject your position.

The sin of unbelief is not atoned for by choosing to believe. It is atoned for by Christ's death.

 

[Pastor Larry]

[quoet]We cannot not believe unless we hear as in we are not elected to salvation until we hear in plain english and is simple.

That it is effectual preaching, faith and repentance, and then election.[/quote]Where is this in Scripture? You have posted yet again without Scripture. Why? Do you have none?

We are saved by grace through faith and we cannot be saved unless we are sent and they hear. simple.

I agree.

I do not agree with your order of salvation it is not scriptual.

Feel free to refute it from Scripture.

Why can't we just believe the word of God.

Exactly. So use the Word of God to show us where people are elected after they have faith. That's all I am asking. Is that too much?

You want us to believe hte word of God but will not use the word of God to convince us.

 

[skypair]

Election, effectual calling, faith and repentance, regeneration, justification, baptism/union with Christ, Adoption, Sanctificaiton, Perseverance and Preservation, Glorificaiton

OK, let's compare.

There was NO predetermination -- only foreknowledge. Everyone's first "contact" with God is called our "calling." To make it "effectual" in one case and "ineffectual" in another MAKES THE POINT THAT THERE IS FREE WILL operating. Effectual/ineffectual only speaks of the outcome of one calling on different people (For instance, some who are called the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. time don't come but do come later. Thus, according to Calvin, that same call is "ineffectual" even for some "elect!"). Thus, those adjectives have nothing in the world to do with elect/non-elect.

Then the next thing that has to come is obedience (belief and repentance) unto justification of God ("for Abraham believed and it was counted to him for righteousness"). At this point, God gives us faith

Then God "gives" (John 12:36) or "translates" (Col 1:13) us into "the kingdom of His dear Son" (OT saints get this in the MK) where we are given the Holy Spirit of regeneration/baptism of the Spirit, adoption, sanctification, preservation (notice, these all come by the Holy Spirit indwelling. That is, we can't be regenerated, adopted, sanctified, preserved without the Spirit be in us! That is how every believer enters Christ's kingdom.

Now that you are in Christ's kingdom, you are elect! God, your Father, DOES have a plan for your life. If you follow and obey Him, you will become more like Jesus every day! :thumbs:

1 Cor 2 reminds us that the natural man does not recieve the things of the Spirit of God and cannot know them. That is the "soil" that is not prepared by the Spirit. They are unsaved and cannot understand.

1Cor 2:14 is talking about the "deeper things of God," Larry. (2:6-11) But Paul specifically said, "I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." He came with a message that ALL might understand -- the gospel!! He spoke "wisdom" only among them that are perfect [saved]," 2:6!!

Again, Calvin is NOT the most reputable source for your scriptural interpretation.

No, the parable of the sower has nothing to do with dispensations. It deals with the human heart. That is why it says that it deals with the human heart.

So far as you have been able to independently determine, that is. See that worries me, Larry. A Christian can come along and show you how the whole passage (Mt 13) is one coherent picture and you dismiss his Spirit "out of hand."

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

There was NO predetermination -- only foreknowledge

You would have to show a difference here. But this really isn’t the point here.

Everyone's first "contact" with God is called our "calling." To make it "effectual" in one case and "ineffectual" in another MAKES THE POINT THAT THERE IS FREE WILL operating. Effectual/ineffectual only speaks of the outcome of one calling on different people (For instance, some who are called the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. time don't come but do come later. Thus, according to Calvin, that same call is "ineffectual" even for some "elect!"). Thus, those adjectives have nothing in the world to do with elect/non-elect.

Effectual call is the term we use to describe the call in passages like 1 Cor 1 where the “call” is the difference between the saved and unsaved. There is something about being “called” that sets them apart from everyone else.

Now that you are in Christ's kingdom, you are elect!

And where is this in Scripture? You guys, and your lack of Scripture is amazing.

1Cor 2:14 is talking about the "deeper things of God," Larry.

No, not really. It is talking about “spiritual things” and you know that because that is what it says. It is talking about why some people understand and others do not, and the contrast in the passage is saved and unsaved.

Again, Calvin is NOT the most reputable source for your scriptural interpretation.

I didn’t quote Calvin. I don’t know what Calvin says about this passage.

So far as you have been able to independently determine, that is. See that worries me, Larry. A Christian can come along and show you how the whole passage (Mt 13) is one coherent picture and you dismiss his Spirit "out of hand."

I think it is one coherent picture. But your explanation does not match up with Christ’s, and so I go with Christ on it.

The more we talk Skypair, I have to go back to an oft repeated phrase, that you simply do not seem to have interacted much with Scripture and what we believe. It seems you started with a position to defend, and read everything in light of that.

That is why you are willing to have an unjust God who sends people to hell for sins that were paid for.

That is why you have election after faith, in spite of the fact that there is not one verse of Scripture that supports that. If there were, you would have posted it by now. But you keep dodging because you have none.

There are so many holes in your position it is unreal. It just seems like you haven’t thought much about it outside your little box. And that makes discussion very difficult.

 

[EdSutton]

There are so many holes in your position it is unreal. It just seems like you haven’t thought much about it outside your little box. And that makes discussion very difficult.

IMO, there are so many 'holes' in every position that attempts, as most unwittingly do, even while well-intentioned, to construct a system to answer some perceived 'shortcoming', or 'drawback', in another. Now 'bound' by this construct, the system proceeds to fit other Scripture to it. Virtually each and every system has these same shortcomings. And the systems of so-called "Calvinism"and/or "Arminianism" take a back seat to none, in this, but manage to "hang in there" with the best of 'em. Fortunately God (and Scripture as well) does not see Himself bound to any such system, from A to Z or anywhere in between. But it makes life much more difficult for our limited minds, I agree, since any "little box" does a very poor job of containing a Word of God, that is alive of its own right, and an infinite God that transcends the universe, yet could dwell in all fullness in Jesus, and in a finite body.

Ed

 

[psalms109:31]

scripture

I did give you scripture.

First the preaching, because we cannot believe unless we hear and then faith, and then election. Whosoever believes shall be saved.

Those who He foreknew, He also predestined, foreknowledge comes first.