What is calvinism?

[npetreley]

I did give you scripture.

First the preaching, because we cannot believe unless we hear and then faith, and then election. Whosoever believes shall be saved.

Those who He foreknew, He also predestined, foreknowledge comes first.

Except the word translated as "foreknew" doesn't mean "foreknew what they would choose". It means "foreknew" as in "knew intimately before they existed".

Contrast this to when Jesus says, "Depart from me, I never knew you," where He uses the same Greek word (ginosko). If you're going to interpret proginosko as "knew beforehand how they would choose" instead of "knew beforehand intimately", then you'd have to interpret what Jesus said as meaning "I never knew how you would choose". Obviously that would be downright silly.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I did give you scripture.

First the preaching, because we cannot believe unless we hear and then faith, and then election. Whosoever believes shall be saved.

Those who He foreknew, He also predestined, foreknowledge comes first.

Where is the Scripture that places election before faith? You have not given me that.

Furthermore, in the verse you just cited, what is "foreknown" is not faith; it is people. And npetreley gave a good definition of foreknowledge.

So you haven't given any Scripture to support your main contention that election comes after faith. Why not?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Contrast this to when Jesus says, "Depart from me, I never knew you," where He uses the same Greek word (ginosko). If you're going to interpret proginosko as "knew beforehand how they would choose" instead of "knew beforehand intimately", then you'd have to interpret what Jesus said as meaning "I never knew how you would choose". Obviously that would be downright silly.

Romans 11:2 also makes the idea that foreknowledge is simply knownig ahead of time downright silly. There, God foreknows Israel meaning he chose them and has not rejected them. It is tied to the teaching of Deut that God knew Israel over the other nations of the earth. It was clearly choosing that was involved.

 

[npetreley]

Where is the Scripture that places election before faith? You have not given me that.

I think you meant to ask him for Scripture that places faith before election.

One more thing... Look at the verse itself, "Those He foreknew he also predestined". Those He foreknew? As opposed to whom? As opposed to those He did NOT foreknow. There is no other possible answer.

If "foreknew" meant "foreknew would have faith", then the answer to the question "As opposed to whom?" would have to be "Those He foreknew!" The ones He did NOT predestine were the ones He foreknew would NOT have faith. In both cases, He foreknew. This turns the Scripture quote into nonsense, because "Those He foreknew He also predestined" qualifies a certain people, and the remaining people cannot also be "Those He foreknew".

So the passage cannot possibly mean what you want it to mean (not you, Larry, but Psalms). You would literally have to add to and rewrite Scripture to say, "Those He knew would have faith, He also foreknew intimately, and those He foreknew intimately, He also predestined."

 

[psalms109:31]

I have

Faith comes after you hear, you can't be elected until you hear.

Jesus known who would believe Him and who would betray Him. Not complicated.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, we just go and telll

 

[npetreley]

Faith comes after you hear, you can't be elected until you hear.

Scripture, please.

 

[npetreley]

Jesus known who would believe Him and who would betray Him. Not complicated.

Not complicated at all! I know who is going to unload the dishwasher tonight. My daughter will. She's going to do it because I will tell her to do it, and I know she will obey. I also know that if I don't tell her to do it, she won't unload the dishwasher. So in this case, the outcome still hinges upon me, not my daughter. In other words, the fact that Jesus knew who would believe does not tell you that they believed on their own steam.

You can't take a scripture that says Jesus knew who would believe and use it to change the meaning of "Those He foreknew, He also predestined".

 

[Rippon]

Acts 13:48 for just one example negates the contentions of Mr. Ps .

All who were ordained to eternal life believed .

The foreordination or appointment was in eternity past . Faith is given in the present . Of couse faith and belief mean the same thing . Some folks really have things so convoluted . In their view God has to look and see who He gave faith to in the future -- then elect them after their free will kicked in and cinched the deal . God is somewhere in the mix . He gets honorable mention .

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

All who were ordained to eternal life believed .

It depends on how you see that verse.

He has ordained not believers to believe, but those who have faith in His word.

You cannot believe in His word until you have faith in it.

 

[Rippon]

We are taliking about Acts 13:48 . The end of the verse is under view . : ... all who had been appointed for eternal life believed .

Mr. Ps. said " It depends on how you see that verse . " Whew ! How one sees it ?! How about the way it reads ? Faith is the fruit , the result of election , not the other way around . The Lord has determined , foreordained , to bring those of His choosing ( the elect) to faith . That gift of faith will lead them to glory . Salvation is only due to His mercy which He bestows on those whom He desires . We can't be disposed to eternal life -- the sovereign Lord brings those whom He has determined from before the foundation of the world to Himself . Amen ? Allright then AMEN !

 

[psalms109:31]

Election

Election is the fruit of faith.

We are saved by grace through faith, we are not saved by grace through election, that is a hyper idea.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of through, you can either take that by faith or not.

Stand firm people no matter what men may say God does love the world that He sent His Son and whosoever believes shall be saved. When God say's the world He means the world, when He say's all He means all.

Do not lean on your own understanding but trust in Jesus.

 

[psalms109:31]

Praise

It has come down to praising election and lifting up it instead of Jesus.

As the result men are trying to enter salvation through election instead of faith.

 

[Pastor Larry]

You cannot believe in His word until you have faith in it.

Talk about saying nothing. To beleive is to have faith. It is the same word. This is like saying you can't get up until you get up. No kidding.

Election is the fruit of faith.

You keep saying this, but you have yet to offer any support. Why? Why not simply tell us where God said this. That will settle it.

We are saved by grace through faith, we are not saved by grace through election

This presents a false dichotomy and misrepresents the Calvinist position.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of through, you can either take that by faith or not.

I agree. But that's not the issue.

Stand firm people no matter what men may say God does love the world that He sent His Son and whosoever believes shall be saved. When God say's the world He means the world, when He say's all He means all.

I agree with this and most Calvinists do as well.

Do not lean on your own understanding but trust in Jesus.

This is at the heart of Calvinist theology.

But why don't you tell us where Scripture says that election is the fruit of faith? Surely that is not too much to ask is it. Just give the reference. You don't even have to quote it. We will be glad to look it up.

 

[psalms109:31]

scripture

I keep telling you I have.

You have to hear to believe and you can't unless someone is sent.

So if no one can be sent they cannot be saved.

We cannot have faith until we hear.

So election is after we hear, plain and simple.

Election is by faith.

We are saved by grace through faith.

It is not a wrong, because you cannot believe until you hear. Simple

 

[Pastor Larry]

We must be not communicating very well here. I keep asking for Scripture and you keep giving none.

We agree that you have to hear before you have faith, and that you must have faith to be saved. That's not a point of difference.

But you make this statement: Election is by faith.

That is what we want Scripture for. Show us somewhere in the Scripture that shows election is by faith. You have given no Scripture for that.

Are you clear about what we are asking for?

 

[psalms109:31]

Have faith

If you have to hear first to receive faith then you are not elected until you hear.

I think it's pretty clear.

We are saved by grace through faith, if you have not received the faith you arte not elected.

Jesus really wants us to go and tell so that in the end there will be more elected to salvation.

We have for many generation been walking around not obeying God while people are dying around us.

 

[npetreley]

If you have to hear first to receive faith then you are not elected until you hear.

I think it's pretty clear.

We are saved by grace through faith, if you have not received the faith you arte not elected.

Jesus really wants us to go and tell so that in the end there will be more elected to salvation.

We have for many generation been walking around not obeying God while people are dying around us.

You missed your calling. I suggest politics, Democratic party.

 

[psalms109:31]

opinions

we are saved by grace through faith.

If you have to faith you cannot be elected to salvation.

Israel was also chosen, but could not enter because of unbelief.

To enter election it is calling and then going.

 

[Pastor Larry]

If you have to hear first to receive faith then you are not elected until you hear.

I think it's pretty clear.

We are saved by grace through faith, if you have not received the faith you arte not elected.

Jesus really wants us to go and tell so that in the end there will be more elected to salvation.

We have for many generation been walking around not obeying God while people are dying around us.

Yet another post without Scripture. Why? You say, "If you have to hear first to receive faith then you are not elected until you hear." But you haven't shown where God said that, and I am sure you understand that his statement is more important than yours.

So why won't you tell us where God says that faith leads to election? Do you not know where God said it?

 

[psalms109:31]

election

We can be elected for death you don't know, but the scripture tells us we are saved by grace through faith.

We know those are elected to salvation is through faith.

Election does not make you saved the Jews was elected to be the children of God but was cut out for unbelief.

The scripture tels the to the letter to a church leaders that they have been predestined, why because they were a believing church.

Believers have been predestined to salvation by the word of God that whosoever believes shall be saved.