Forgiven if it is confessed - is that confessed by unbelievers/non-elect or just by believers/elect?
Only elect/believers confess sin.
You're using terminology that is not used in scripture, Larry. Show me in scripture the terms "common grace" and "saving grace" and show me how common grace pays for the sin of all men but saving grace restricts it to only the elect.
First, we all use terminology that is not in Scripture, like Trinity, soteriology, etc. We use it because it describes a theological concept.
Common grace is God’s grace that is common to all men. It is why people don’t die immediately when they sin. Thus, all men without exception benefit from the atonement in some ways. But only those who believe are saved, having their sins paid for by the atonement.
But that is my contention, Larry. There IS a before, a chronology. The "causative" reason for faith and regeneration is REPENTANCE and before that, belief.
It’s not chronological. It’s logical, or causative.
Eph 1:4 -- "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,..." No "elect, Larry.
What do you think “chosen” is? It is the word eklegomai. It means “elect.”
Chosen IN HIM, Larry. How "in Him?" Because we believed IN HIM.
Notice how you added to Scripture. I refuse to do that. But even at that, how were people chosen before the foundation of the world before they believed? That makes no sense.
2Thes 2:13 -- "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:..." Which came first according to other scriptures -- sanctification or belief? BELIEF, Larry.
Nope, in the passage, they were chosen for salvation from the beginning, and the salvation came through the setting apart of the Spirit (effectual call) and belief in the truth. The choosing was from “the beginning” which of necessity had to be before belief. You can’t believe before you are alive, but the election takes place from the beginning.
2Tim 2:10 -- "...I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus..." Could Paul not have as easily said "for the believer's sakes?" Sure! I endure all things so that believers may obtain salvation in Christ.
But again, read the passage. They are elect before they have salvation, and therefore before they believed. Paul endures prison and suffering for the sake of the elect so that they may hear the gospel and receive salvation, and with it eternal glory. You simply need to read the passage for what it says and not try to support your view out of it.
Larry, I don't know what seminary you went through and I know you likely, like my pastor/nephew, don't have time to study this but you are misreading these passages.
I have plenty of time to study these passages. How do you think I learned what they say? We have seen in just these three instances how you ignore what the passage says, add to it things that it does not say, all in the pursuit of supporting your position. That is a bad way to do theology.
I lay you 10 to 1 odds it doesn't say anything about where election or choosing comes in relation to foreknowledge. That you got from the study of Calvinism.
Read it and send me my money.
I won't disagree with this. But it does come AFTER foreknowledge.
First, you have been disagreeing with it all along. Second, foreknowledge is intimate knowledge. It is in essence to choose. It is not simply looking ahead to see what someone would do.
Like I challenged -- tell us where election is before salvation (other than in God's foreknowledge).
I showed you three clear places.
Again, I agree. In eternity past, God knew who would believe and, thus, who He would "elect."
You have previously been disagreeing. But God’s choosing is never said to be based on foreseeing who would believe. You won’t one place where foreknowledge is attached to belief.
Larry, I'm at least as honest with scripture as you are.
I think we have just seen that thoroughly debunked.
Please try to see why there are 2 sides to this debate.
I know that. I have read both sides at length, and listened to people from both sides. I used to hold your position. Scripture convinced me otherwise. It was a contributing factor in my losing a position I had on staff at a church.
I have "come around to" the confession that faith is given of God. I have admitted that God gives the Son all who will be saved. Please try to at least understand someone who is learning and digging out the truth.
We are all doing this I hope. I certainly do not know it all. I don’t pretend to. I do know some things however. And some of what you are saying is not squaring up with Scripture. That is why I had to abandon it some years ago.
