What is Dispensationalism?

[John of Japan]

Indeed, it is commonly used by Dispensationalists, although it is a misnomer and a misrepresentation.

Prove to me that only dispensationalists use the term.

I refer you to Acts 7:38. I am not aware of a 'Church Age.' It seems to me to be an artificial construction.
The Church is the Bride of Christ and at the end of time He will present her 'To Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish' (Ephesians 5:27). The Church is the Bride and she becomes the Lamb's Wife (Revelation 21:9; c.f. 19:7-8).

In dispensationalism, the church is peculiar to the time following Pentecost. There were no churches in any previous dispensation or era. As Baptists, we believe that local churches have: baptism, the Lord's supper, meetings on Sunday, membership, a Great Commission, pastors and deacons, evangelists and missionaries, etc. None of these existed in any previous dispensation or age (even believers' baptism is different from John's.). Therefore, the church age is certainly not an "artificial construction," but one planned by God, even if you are not aware of it.

This is the whole point; the Jews and Gentiles are now one, joined together in the Church of Christ. Do Jewish Christians not join churches? Of course they do!

And we agree thus far. But God has not cast away His chosen people, the nation of Israel. (Paul said that.)

They are not ecclesiological, they are soteriological. Romans 8:9-11. 'Now if anyone [Jew or Gentile] does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.....etc.' This is about salvation, not about the Church.

I never denied that there were soteriological points in the passages I mentioned. But surely you believe that your church is the body of Christ, don't you? If not, you are ignoring plain Scriptures.

In short, there is only one people of God. This was God's intention right from the start (Genesis 12:3b etc., etc.). God built His people first from one man, then from one nation, but His purpose was always one elect people from 'all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues' (Revelation 7:9). This does not by any means rule out a great future revival among the Jews, but nor does it rule out the same among the Arabs.

Wow. I wish I knew the intention of God throughout the ages as clearly as you seem to. (Alert: this is sarcasm.) Because Gen. 12:3 certainly does not give all of God's intention towards the Jews. One verse could not possibly contain everything about so exalted and wonderful a subject.

 

[David Kent]

You are confusing the Kingdom of God and the throne of David.

No I am not, I am rightly dividing.. They are one. When presented as their King of Israel they called ''''

• Matthew 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

They recognised Jesus as the son of David, and as King so he could only be king on David's throne.

• John 12:9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
• 10But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
• 11Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.
• 12On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
• 13Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
• 14And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,
• 15Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.
• 16These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.
• 17The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.
• 18For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle.
• 19The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
• 20And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
• 21The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
• 22Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
• 23And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
• 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
• 25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
• 26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Many Jews accepted Jesus as their king, and from then He was sitting on the throne of David,

I would like John to answer a question and all dispensationalists (there I wrote it in full) :
Do you believe that OT saints will be raised at the time when Christ will descend and we meet Him in the air, or at some other time?

 

[kyredneck]

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12

Israel and the Church are separate.

???

 

[John of Japan]

No I am not, I am rightly dividing.. They are one. When presented as their King of Israel they called ''''

• Matthew 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

They recognised Jesus as the son of David, and as King so he could only be king on David's throne.

This doesn't answer my point, which was that the Kingdom of God and David's throne are two different things.

Many Jews accepted Jesus as their king, and from then He was sitting on the throne of David,

But Christ clearly rejected the earthly kingdom at that time, and did not take the throne of David, which is a physical manifestation, not a spiritual one. You are suggesting without proof that the throne of David is internal and spiritual, and not an actual kingdom. That's not how Christ viewed it. He did not correct the disciples's view that there was a physical kingdom coming. And I'm sure David would have been surprised to learn that he did not have a physical throne.

Acts 1:6 "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."

I would like John to answer a question and all dispensationalists (there I wrote it in full) :
Do you believe that OT saints will be raised at the time when Christ will descend and we meet Him in the air, or at some other time?

Yes, at the rapture.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 5 PM Pacific.

 

[agedman]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 5 PM Pacific.

awww,

Does it really have to be?

It has been a great thread, no animosity, tremendous sharing of the Scriptures, and truly enjoyably edifying.

But, thanks for the warning.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Prove to me that only dispensationalists use the term.

That would be impossible to do without reading every single word ever written on the subject. However, I am not altogether unread and I cannot recall anyone other than a Dispensationalist using the term a priori. Reformed folk and others have used it in response, of course.

In dispensationalism, the church is peculiar to the time following Pentecost. There were no churches in any previous dispensation or era. As Baptists, we believe that local churches have: baptism, the Lord's supper, meetings on Sunday, membership, a Great Commission, pastors and deacons, evangelists and missionaries, etc. None of these existed in any previous dispensation or age (even believers' baptism is different from John's.). Therefore, the church age is certainly not an "artificial construction," but one planned by God, even if you are not aware of it.

It is not the Church (capital 'C') that is an artificial construction, but the idea of a 'church age' that appears and then will disappear. At the risk of experiencing the ire of my Fundamentalist brethren, I do not believe that baptism etc. are of the essence of the Church. The Church is the Bride of Christ-- God's people throughout the ages, looking forward to the Seed of the woman crushing the serpent's head. It is true that they did not band together in churches until after Pentecost, but they are one people (Hebrews 12:1) and will congregate together at the Last day (Isaiah 25:6-9; Revelation 7:9ff).

And we agree thus far. But God has not cast away His chosen people, the nation of Israel. (Paul said that.)

Indeed not! There is a remnant saved by grace (Paul said that too).
[QOTE]I never denied that there were soteriological points in the passages I mentioned. But surely you believe that your church is the body of Christ, don't you? If not, you are ignoring plain Scriptures.[/QUOTE]
Indeed it is. But the texts you gave were soteriological. The Church is in the first place soteriological, not ecclesiological or eschatological (enough long words already!)

Wow. I wish I knew the intention of God throughout the ages as clearly as you seem to. (Alert: this is sarcasm.)

I wish you did too. (Alert, this is also sarcasm).

Because Gen. 12:3 certainly does not give all of God's intention towards the Jews. One verse could not possibly contain everything about so exalted and wonderful a subject.

I did not say it did. I cited it as the first such verse. I shall be preaching on Isaiah 42 next week and refer you to vs.6-9, but there are dozens of such verses. The mystery that was hidden from ages and generations (though clearly adumbrated in the O.T.) is the coming in of the Gentiles to make one new man in Christ Jesus (Colossians 1:25-29; Ephesians 2:11-18).

A new thread on God's purposes in the Mosaic Covenant might prove interesting.

 

[agedman]

Sometimes it seems that some forget this statement in Romans, as it concerns the future:
Romans 11

28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
​

Only in the millennium will such fulfillment take place.

 

[Yeshua1]

Why?

Indeed He does, but that does not mean that He was not these things before. The difference is that every eye shall see Him.

No, the big difference is that He will no longer allow/permit sin and evil to run on the earth, as he will establish a direct dominion over the earth and all that will cease!

 

[Yeshua1]

You are confusing the Kingdom of God as taught by Christ, and the throne of David.

Yes, for the Kingdom right now is still in building stage, and will be complete when the King arrives to reign directly over it!

 

[agedman]

No, the big difference is that He will no longer allow/permit sin and evil to run on the earth, as he will establish a direct dominion over the earth and all that will cease!

An aspect that some miss when considering the millennial reign is that the rebellious heart is unchanged.

Though the forces of Satan and even that enemy is shackled, the heart of humankind is corrupt, and hence the rod of iron rule.

 

[Yeshua1]

An aspect that some miss when considering the millennial reign is that the rebellious heart is unchanged.

Though the forces of Satan and even that enemy is shackled, the heart of humankind is corrupt, and hence the rod of iron rule.

Yes, as King Jesus will enforce His reign by being a Benevolent Dictator!

 

[rlvaughn]

In dispensationalism, the church is peculiar to the time following Pentecost.

While this may be generally true, there are a fair number of dispensational premillennialists among Baptists who hold that the church began in the ministry of Christ rather than on the day of Pentecost.

 

[Covenanter]

An aspect that some miss when considering the millennial reign is that the rebellious heart is unchanged.

Though the forces of Satan and even that enemy is shackled, the heart of humankind is corrupt, and hence the rod of iron rule.

Agreed - because the millennium is NOW - the present Gospel age - not in the future after Jesus' return. .

 

[kyredneck]

The Church is the Bride of Christ-- God's people throughout the ages

Agree!

 

[John of Japan]

While this may be generally true, there are a fair number of dispensational premillennialists among Baptists who hold that the church began in the ministry of Christ rather than on the day of Pentecost.

This is true.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, as King Jesus will enforce His reign by being a Benevolent Dictator!

Of course your scripture proof is on the way. ...

 

[agedman]

Agreed - because the millennium is NOW - the present Gospel age - not in the future after Jesus' return. .

In this we disagree.

This is the age called Grace.

A time characterized by a suffering assembly that examples the suffering Saviour.

However, in that millennium there is no such condition in which the church ever suffers but rules and reigns WITH Him.

Where now He is to rule and be the Lord in the life of believers, at that time in the millennial He will be Lord and King of all even the earthly Kings.

 

[agedman]

Of course your scripture proof is on the way. ...

Psalm 72

 

[John of Japan]

That would be impossible to do without reading every single word ever written on the subject. However, I am not altogether unread and I cannot recall anyone other than a Dispensationalist using the term a priori. Reformed folk and others have used it in response, of course.

It took me a very brief search, maybe just one minute, to find this website that both believes in and claims the name "replacement theology": Replacement Theology, supersessionism: Christians are God's Jews. The church is true Israel.

It is not the Church (capital 'C') that is an artificial construction, but the idea of a 'church age' that appears and then will disappear. At the risk of experiencing the ire of my Fundamentalist brethren, I do not believe that baptism etc. are of the essence of the Church. The Church is the Bride of Christ-- God's people throughout the ages, looking forward to the Seed of the woman crushing the serpent's head. It is true that they did not band together in churches until after Pentecost, but they are one people (Hebrews 12:1) and will congregate together at the Last day (Isaiah 25:6-9; Revelation 7:9ff).

You are not addressing my point, which is that there are many things that are peculiar to this age that did not exist before. Therefore, something is peculiar to the age of grace, and the is the local church. (l'm not interested in a "universal church" doctrine.) Since these things exist in this age, but not others, that is the proof I offer that the local church is peculiar to this age. That is what I mean by the church age. To disprove my point, you must prove that the things I mentioned existed in local assemblies before Christ, who instituted the local church.

Indeed it is. But the texts you gave were soteriological. The Church is in the first place soteriological, not ecclesiological or eschatological (enough long words already!)

Huh? The "body of Christ," the local church (all of those NT statements on the body of Christ were to local churches) is not ecclesiological? That's one of the strangest statements ever made on the BB.

I'm a local church guy. The "universal church" has not ever met, and that's what an ekklesia does: meet. My points have been from the local church viewpoint, which is what I mean when I say "Church Age." Until you address that view, you have not answered my points.

I did not say it did. I cited it as the first such verse. I shall be preaching on Isaiah 42 next week and refer you to vs.6-9, but there are dozens of such verses. The mystery that was hidden from ages and generations (though clearly adumbrated in the O.T.) is the coming in of the Gentiles to make one new man in Christ Jesus (Colossians 1:25-29; Ephesians 2:11-18).

Okay. That discussion will wait for another day.

A new thread on God's purposes in the Mosaic Covenant might prove interesting.

Yes it might.