What is Dispensationalism?

[David Kent]

Did I say that? No.

The subject of the kingdom in its various manifestations takes up 531 pages of The Greatness of the Kingdom, by dispensationalist Alva McClain, so I'm not going to get into it on this thread. (I took a grad class on it with that as the textbook.)

We don't need any writings by a dispensationalist, we only need a couple of verses from the scripture. Here is one:

• 1 Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

 

[agedman]

We don't need any writings by a dispensationalist, we only need a couple of verses from the scripture. Here is one:

• 1 Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

Where is the kingdom?

If Christ’s statement to the judge was, “My Kingdom is not of this world,” why do believers pray, “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven,” or why when asked did the Lord say, “The coming of the kingdom of God...” if there was never a physical kingdom coming?

 

[Covenanter]

You are welcome.

I did not invent the term. [replacement theology] It is commonly used in eschatology.

Is it eschatological or applied to the present age of grace? In my experienc e it is used as a term of abuse rather than an eschatological term.

The dispensation of the Church Age began at Pentecost in Acts 2. There were no local churches before that, and there will be none in the millennium. Those are different stewardships from God.

The local church situation is interesting - under the OC dispensation worship was centralised in Jerusalem & the temple. The nation of Israel religion & state were to act as one.
However the Levites were scattered through the community to instruct local congregations - churches.
Further because of the series of dispersions around the Mediterrean & Babylonia from the Assyrian onwards, local synagogues were formed, local Jewish churches or congregations.
The Apostles preached to these & converted Jews & Gentiles formed local churches. The immediate result was a separation of church & state. Churches were separate from the state religion. And established state churches tend to be inclusive of the unconverted.

I see no good reason why local churches/congregations should not continue in the supposed millennium.
I raised the state-church point on The Reformers and their Stepchildren thread.

It's not just a problem from 500 years ago - it's going on it every country in the world & every religion - the state controls the religion & is opposed to conversion, & especially Gospel preaching & independent churches.

The passage you quoted [Eph. 2] is clearly specific to the Church Age, since it speaks of the "body of Christ." In Paul's letters to the churches he refers often to this metaphor, but it is never used for the Jewish people per se, only for the church, which merges Jews and Gentiles into one body. This is clear from Col. 1:24, which says, "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church."

See also Rom. 8:10 &12:5, 3 verses in 1 Cor., your verses in Eph. (specifically to a church), two other verses in Eph., & Col. 2:17. These passages are ecclesiological, not eschatalogical.

Believing Jews & Gentiles become one people of God, constantly referred to as such throughout the OC in the expression - you will be my people & I will be our God. An expression applied to churches & to the redeemed in the NH&NE.

A great separation of believers by ethnicity during the supposed millennium is in violation of the perfect unity taught in Eph. 2 & other NC Scriptures.

 

[David Kent]

Where is the kingdom?

• Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[agedman]

• Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The kingdom is the tribulation?

 

[David Kent]

The kingdom is the tribulation?

"You cannot be serious! "

The church has always gone through tribulation.

• 
  
  • John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

• Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[agedman]

"You cannot be serious! "

The church has always gone through tribulation.

• 
  
  • John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

• Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

if believers "through tribulation enter into the kingdom of God," does that not mean that the believers living in this world are not yet in the kingdom?

 

[prophecy70]

I don't know about the quote from Melitus. You don't source it so I can't check it. Ignatius and Justin were both premil. Origen was the one who brought allegorical interpretation into the church (and a very weird dude), so dispensationalism opposes his teaching.

It's much easier to interact with your quotes when you source them.

Pre-Trib Research Center -

 

[prophecy70]

and will in the future sit on the throne of David.

Why doesn't any part of the NT talk about this?

Its seems to me the Bible shows death and all is defeated at the second coming, not 1000 years after the second coming.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

So you are not in Christ's Kingdom?

• John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Notice the bold red word from the text.

 

[prophecy70]

Notice the bold red word from the text.

Well then show where he's ruling from Jerusalem on davids throne. I missed that part.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I think JoJ point is that right now Jesus is in His High Priestly role, and not that of the King!

According to Scripture, Christ is seated at His Father’s side.

He is the “Prince of Peace,” and though all authority is His, He remains beside the Father as the Prince.

When He returns He bears the title, “King of Kings.”

Matthew 28:18. 'And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth....."' He is King right now (c.f. John 18:36-37; Psalm 110:2; Daniel 7:14). He is High Priest in the order of Melchizedek, which makes Him a Prophet and a King as well as a Priest (Genesis 14:18-19). He will still be seated at the Father's side in the NH&NE (Revelation 22:1, 3).

 

[prophecy70]

Matthew 28:18. 'And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth....."' He is King right now (c.f. John 18:36-37; Psalm 110:2; Daniel 7:14). He is High Priest in the order of Melchizedek, which makes Him a Prophet and a King as well as a Priest (Genesis 14:18-19). He will still be seated at the Father's side in the NH&NE (Revelation 22:1, 3).

Ephesians 1
That power is the same as the mighty strength 20he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

 

[agedman]

Matthew 28:18. 'And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth....."' He is King right now (c.f. John 18:36-37; Psalm 110:2; Daniel 7:14). He is High Priest in the order of Melchizedek, which makes Him a Prophet and a King as well as a Priest (Genesis 14:18-19). He will still be seated at the Father's side in the NH&NE (Revelation 22:1, 3).

Martin, I think it a bit of stretch to quote the statement of Matthew 28 which is about the authority given after the crucifixion and place it as fully conforming all other statements to therefore fulfilled category.

He returns as King of Kings prior to the millennium as stated in Revelation 19:

11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”a He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.​

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin, I think it a bit of stretch to quote the statement of Matthew 28 which is about the authority given after the crucifixion and place it as fully conforming all other statements to therefore fulfilled category.

Why?

He returns as King of Kings prior to the millennium as stated in Revelation 19:

Indeed He does, but that does not mean that He was not these things before. The difference is that every eye shall see Him.

 

[agedman]

Why?

Indeed He does, but that does not mean that He was not these things before. The difference is that every eye shall see Him.

I agree, however, in the Revelation unless I am mistaken he was not presented as the king of kings until Revelation 19, and with the exception of that glorious splendor of him in the exalted estate of the opening chapters he is pictured as the worthy lamb.

 

[Iconoclast]

I highly recommend this book. It's a classic in the field, and in fact the only book I know of on a scholarly level that treats the subject thoroughly.

A dispensational church would have solid agreement. If a church is historic premil they would have less agreement.

I am enjoying the introductory portions of this book so far.
I am encouraged that he is already mentioning verses that I would like to see dealt with.
I am not sure if this online portion is just a sample...

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I agree, however, in the Revelation unless I am mistaken he was not presented as the king of kings until Revelation 19, and with the exception of that glorious splendor of him in the exalted estate of the opening chapters he is pictured as the worthy lamb.

With respect, that's a bit like saying, "Except for the bits that prove me wrong I am absolutely correct." 'Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honour and glory and blessing' (compare with 4:11). 19:11ff is the fulfilment of 1:7.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I did not invent the term ['Replacement theology]. It is commonly used in eschatology.

Indeed, it is commonly used by Dispensationalists, although it is a misnomer and a misrepresentation.

The dispensation of the Church Age began at Pentecost in Acts 2.

I refer you to Acts 7:38. I am not aware of a 'Church Age.' It seems to me to be an artificial construction.

There were no local churches before that, and there will be none in the millennium. Those are different stewardships from God.

The Church is the Bride of Christ and at the end of time He will present her 'To Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish' (Ephesians 5:27). The Church is the Bride and she becomes the Lamb's Wife (Revelation 21:9; c.f. 19:7-8).

The passage you quoted is clearly specific to the Church Age, since it speaks of the "body of Christ." In Paul's letters to the churches he refers often to this metaphor, but it is never used for the Jewish people per se, only for the church, which merges Jews and Gentiles into one body. This is clear from Col. 1:24, which says, "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church."

This is the whole point; the Jews and Gentiles are now one, joined together in the Church of Christ. Do Jewish Christians not join churches? Of course they do!

See also Rom. 8:10 &12:5, 3 verses in 1 Cor., your verses in Eph. (specifically to a church), two other verses in Eph., & Col. 2:17. These passages are ecclesiological, not eschatalogical.

They are not ecclesiological, they are soteriological. Romans 8:9-11. 'Now if anyone [Jew or Gentile] does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.....etc.' This is about salvation, not about the Church.

In short, there is only one people of God. This was God's intention right from the start (Genesis 12:3b etc., etc.). God built His people first from one man, then from one nation, but His purpose was always one elect people from 'all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues' (Revelation 7:9). This does not by any means rule out a great future revival among the Jews, but nor does it rule out the same among the Arabs.

 

[John of Japan]

We don't need any writings by a dispensationalist, we only need a couple of verses from the scripture. Here is one:

• 1 Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

You are confusing the Kingdom of God as taught by Christ, and the throne of David.