What is God's criterion for election?

[Reformed]

Ok the sum answer is: the counsel of his own will (Eph.1:11).
But that begs the question: what do you think the counsel of his own will is based on? Again, what is the criterion?

George, it is not begging the question when the question is asked of God. We know from scripture that God's thoughts are not our thoughts:

Isaiah 55:8-9 8“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.9“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,So are My ways higher than your waysAnd My thoughts than your thoughts."

We read in Romans 9:

Romans 9:20-21 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

The short answer is that scripture does not reveal a criterion for whom God elects other than it glorifies Himself. Why did he elect you and not your next-door neighbor? Hopefully, no one will be so arrogant as to say, "He elected me because I chose Him", as though the thing molded has any influence over God in the matter.

 

[Dave G]

Well, it's been a while since I've had someone question whether or not I believe in God's Word. Where do you get off doing this?

I'm not allowed to do that, considering that the words on the page are where we, as believers, get our understanding of Him and His ways?
As far as I know, what I'm not allowed to do, as part of the rules of this forum, is to question your salvation...

But you'll have to show me where I'm not allowed to question your belief of God's word ( as others have done to others, and the admins have not reprimanded them for it ).

On a side note, I've had trouble believing certain of God's very words, myself...as a believer.
So, if a man like Gideon can have trouble believing God's words, a woman like Sarah can laugh at something God says, and a man like Moses can do the same, then I think that there's no problem with me questioning your belief of them, while still considering that you may very well be saved.

Condescension is fun!

It's not meant to be condescending...
It's meant to be objective.

My intention is not to offend, but no matter what I say on this subject, it seems that you are determined to be offended.
I'm not going to change what I believe, simply to keep from offending you, ITL.
I will, however, try to go out of my way to keep the peace between us.

That said, to me, there are some things that need to be said, some things that are optional, and some things that really shouldn't be said.
I'm still getting my footing on the last one.

Regardless,
On the flip side, if you questioned my belief of God's word, I wouldn't necessarily get upset about it.
I'd simply take the correction and pray for His guidance to better understand His word for myself.

It sure is heartening to know you wouldn't accuse me of being ignorant. But unbelief in the Bible? It seems that's fair game.

The words on the page are what is at issue, ITL.
Not some man's teaching of them.

I've identified that you don't appear to agree with certain Scriptures in the Bible, when taken at face value.
For example:

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 ).

Do you have any trouble with what this states?
I think that it's a fair question.

 

[Walpole]

To you, perhaps.

Since He loved me and gave Himself for me, I'm very glad that I am on the side of His grace and mercy, and not on the side of His wrath.
Judgment Day is not going to be pleasant.

But no one who is saved has anything to fear from that.
We stand on nothing except His grace...

Period.
But we stand firmly on it.

My efforts at obedience mean nothing to Him, since it is Christ's efforts on the cross for me, and for His sheep, that are the only thing that God recognizes.



Thankfully, I have Christ's imputed righteousness, the garment found in Matthew 22:1-14, Luke 14:7-14, and Revelation 19:8.

Don't be so sure. Recall Calvin also taught his God will actually deceive people into thinking they are elect, illumining their minds into thinking they are saved, only to pull the rug out from under them at the end.

How do you you are not one of these people who God deceived into thinking you are on the side of "His grace and mercy", only having created you in order for him to take pleasure in destroying?

 

[Dave G]

Don't be so sure. Recall Calvin also taught his God will actually deceive people into thinking they are elect, illumining their minds into thinking they are saved, only to pull the rug out from under them at the end.

Well, it's a good thing that I don't follow John Calvin then, isn't it?

But the Scriptures do say that there are many who will think that they are saved, and are not ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).
The subject of eternal life is not one to be taken lightly.

How do you you are not one of these people who God deceived into thinking you are on the side of "His grace and mercy", only having created you in order for him to take pleasure in destroying?

Good question.

The answer is, that I have faith, which is the evidence of salvation ( Hebrews 11:1 ).
I would hope that you do, as well.

 

[Walpole]

Well, it's a good thing that I don't follow John Calvin then, isn't it?

But the Scriptures do say that there are many who will think that they are saved, and are not ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).
The subject of eternal life is not one to be taken lightly.

Good question.

The answer is, that I have faith, which is the evidence of salvation ( Hebrews 11:1 ).
I would hope that you do, as well.

So you think God has arbitrarily chosen you to be one of His elect?

 

[tyndale1946]

I wish to understand what, if anything, do Calvinists reckon is God's criterion for salvation.
His decree to save one man and damn another is based on what, according to you?
Thank you.

MERCY!!!... Brother Glen

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

[Dave G]

So you think God has arbitrarily chosen you to be one of His elect?

I think the question should be, is "have I believed on Christ for the forgiveness of my sins, from the heart?" ( Romans 10:8-10 ).

That answer is "yes".
His word then fills in the rest of "why" I believe and "how".

Are you saying that I cannot embrace everything that His word tells me about how and why He saves people?
I hope not.

How about this...

"Have you arbitrarily chosen God to be your Saviour, and one of His elect?"
Do you see the difference in viewpoints?

 

[George Antonios]

I'm having a hard time with all this QUOTE dynamic.
You said the criterion is revealed, but then you said that you agree that it's not revealed. I'm confused.

Also we don't know the "who"? As in, you don't know if you're one of the elect?

 

[George Antonios]

MERCY!!!... Brother Glen

The question is what is the criterion for showing mercy to one man but not to another.

 

[George Antonios]

Guys, I need help here and this is veering into a petty feud between people.
Please, what is the CRITERION for God electing one to salvation but another to damnation.
Can I get a simple, short, straight answer? Not a treatise.
I think one or two guys basically said "we don't know" although one seemed to walk that back.
Saying it's after the counsel of his own will (Eph.1:11) begs the question.
Anyone?

 

[Dave G]

Guys, I need help here and this is veering into a petty feud between people.

George, this is a subject that people have very strong reactions to.

Ask people why they resist "Calvinism" ( the "doctrines of grace" ) and you'll find, as you dig deeply, that what they really object to, is that salvation is out of their control.
Inherently, no one likes the idea of not having control over anything, especially not where they go when they die.

Please, what is the CRITERION for God electing one to salvation but another to damnation.

None, from our viewpoint.

Can I get a simple, short, straight answer? Not a treatise.

Without the details, should you expect a short and concise answer?

God's word deals with a lot of things.
It takes time and study, because it is a spiritual book... and Christians progress from "milk" to "meat",
Spiritual growth and understanding do not come overnight.

Do you want fast answers, or complete answers?

If "complete", then study it for yourself.
If "fast", then go to "Bible college" and study "systematic theology", and then choose.
But I don't recommend that.

God's children don't need "bible colleges", as I see it.
They have everything that they need with respect to life and godliness.

I think one or two guys basically said "we don't know" although one seemed to walk that back.
Saying it's after the counsel of his own will (Eph.1:11) begs the question.

Begs what question?

Who He saves, versus who He does not and why?
He has compassion and mercy on whom He will, not on whom we will ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ).
Therein is the mystery of His will regarding who He saves.

To me, that is as far as His word goes...and if anyone goes further than that, then they are stepping out of bounds.


May God bless you sir.

 

[Dave G]

I'm having a hard time with all this QUOTE dynamic.

I'm sorry.

It takes a bit of time getting used to.
To quote someone, simply hold down the left mouse button while dragging it across something they said, and then "quote" or "reply" will then pop up.

Choose one.

Then in the reply box at the bottom of the page, it will say, "insert quotes".
Click the box, and what the person said will pop up in another box, which you can then use to quote that person.

You can also choose to edit a post for up to 90 minutes after you post it.

You said the criterion is revealed, but then you said that you agree that it's not revealed. I'm confuse

I get that...my apologies.
Keep studying.

Also we don't know the "who"? As in, you don't know if you're one of the elect?

Yes, a person can know that they are one of God's elect ( Romans 8:16 ).

It is more subjective than objective, but if you're saved, there are many things in a person's life that are "tell-tales".
Galatians 5:22-23, for example.

 

[George Antonios]

I'm sorry.

It takes a bit of time getting used to.
To quote someone, simply hold down the left mouse button while dragging it across something they said, and then "quote" or "reply" will then pop up.

Choose one.

Then in the reply box at the bottom of the page, it will say, "insert quotes".
Click the box, and what the person said will pop up in another box, which you can then use to quote that person.

You can also choose to edit a post for up to 90 minutes after you post it.

I get that...my apologies.
Keep studying.

Yes, a person can know that they are one of God's elect ( Romans 8:16 ).

It is more subjective than objective, but if you're saved, there are many things in a person's life that are "tell-tales".
Galatians 5:22-23, for example.

Ok thank you for relatively straight answers and for your help on quoting.
I disagree with your definition of something being in our control, but that's for another day.
God bless you.

 

[David Kent]

That god sounds more like a devil.

Your RC god is a devil.

 

[MB]

MERCY!!!... Brother Glen

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Your not Jewish so what does the election of an entire people have to do with it. Can you prove your election?There is not one Gentile mentioned that is elect in scripture
MB

 

[Dave G]

Your not Jewish so what does the election of an entire people have to do with it.

" What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." ( Romans 11:7 ).


" [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" ( Romans 9:22-24 ).

 

[MB]

Guys, I need help here and this is veering into a petty feud between people.
Please, what is the CRITERION for God electing one to salvation but another to damnation.
Can I get a simple, short, straight answer? Not a treatise.
I think one or two guys basically said "we don't know" although one seemed to walk that back.
Saying it's after the counsel of his own will (Eph.1:11) begs the question.
Anyone?

None of them know it's just something they proudly claim. How ever Christ chose to die for the whole world does that make Calvinist elect?I suppose you could say they are part of the world>
MB

 

[MB]

" What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." ( Romans 11:7 ).


" [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" ( Romans 9:22-24 ).

None of this proves your a Jew it does not prove you are elect.either. I don't believe you are elect. It's all in your head.
MB

 

[Dave G]

None of this proves your a Jew it does not prove you are elect.either. I don't believe you are elect. It's all in your head.

It's actually in Scripture:

" Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus [our] brother,
2 to the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. " ( Colossians 1:1-2 ). <------ Here Paul is addressing the believers at Colosse.


" Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye." ( Colossians 3:12-13 ). <------ ...and here, he is declaring that they are the elect of God, holy and beloved.


Therefore, all true believers ( anyone who is saved ) are the elect.

Where did you think I got it from?
John Calvin?

No, MB...straight out of God's word.
Believers are "the elect", Christ's sheep.

Good evening to you, sir.

 

[tyndale1946]

Your not Jewish so what does the election of an entire people have to do with it. Can you prove your election?There is not one Gentile mentioned that is elect in scripture
MB

That is true but the elect are not according to race but according to The Sovereign Grace of Almighty God... Brother Glen

Romans 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.