What is God's criterion for election?

[atpollard]

#6

#4

 

[Walpole]

Your RC god is a devil.

A God who arbitrarily chooses to save some while creating others solely for the purpose to take pleasure in destroying, all while pouring out His wrath and punishment on His own son sounds like a devil. It is the complete antithesis of the God of Christianity, who loved man so much He became one.

 

[Walpole]

I think the question should be, is "have I believed on Christ for the forgiveness of my sins, from the heart?" ( Romans 10:8-10 ).

That answer is "yes".
His word then fills in the rest of "why" I believe and "how".

Are you saying that I cannot embrace everything that His word tells me about how and why He saves people?
I hope not.

How about this...

"Have you arbitrarily chosen God to be your Saviour, and one of His elect?"
Do you see the difference in viewpoints?

Is it a mere coincidence or a convenience that Calvinists always believe they are on the winning side of the coin flip?

Again, in Calvinism, salvation is entirely arbitrary; a flip of a coin. If you are one of his elect, you are going to heaven regardless if you want to, kicking and screaming. Conversely, if you are one of his creatures he chose to take pleasure in seeing destroyed, you are eternal pulpwood, regardless if you believe "form the heart".

 

[Walpole]

The question is what is the criterion for showing mercy to one man but not to another.

There isn't any in Calvinism. It is entirely arbitrary. Hence the God of Calvinism acts with pure will and contra-Logos.

 

[Walpole]

Guys, I need help here and this is veering into a petty feud between people.
Please, what is the CRITERION for God electing one to salvation but another to damnation.
Can I get a simple, short, straight answer? Not a treatise.
I think one or two guys basically said "we don't know" although one seemed to walk that back.
Saying it's after the counsel of his own will (Eph.1:11) begs the question.
Anyone?

There are only three logical options:

a. All will in fact be saved.

b. God simply acts arbitrarily; exercising His pure will by randomly choosing those He will save and randomly choosing those whom He will destroy.

c. God requires something on the part of man.


I'll let the Calvinists chew on this for a while!

 

[37818]

I wish to understand what, if anything, do Calvinists reckon is God's criterion for salvation.
His decree to save one man and damn another is based on what, according to you?
Thank you.

It is wholly unconditional on the part of whom God elects according to His sovereign will and good pleasure. No one deserves salvation.



Personally I believe God's election of His elect is wholly unmerited on the part of whom God elects and is conditional in His sovereign will and good pleasure. His elect being elect according to His foreknowledge, in sanctification of His Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. A condition being no one is deserving salvation.

 

[rsr]

Is it a mere coincidence or a convenience that Calvinists always believe they are on the winning side of the coin flip?".

Not all, of course. I am an Augustinian in soteriological matters and don't pretend to know if God will give me the gift of perseverance. I figure many will be surprised at who is the ultimate recipient of God's grace and who is not.

 

[Dave G]

Is it a mere coincidence or a convenience that Calvinists always believe they are on the winning side of the coin flip?

Please forgive my apparent tone, but:

Is it me, or do those who emphasize "free will" as being the determining factor in salvation, always believe that what they do guarantees their salvation?
Does their choice of "heads or tails" force God to flip the coin in their favor?

Scripture doesn't teach that, Walpole.
You've been sold an empty bill of goods.

Forget what the television and the radio say, and read His words, cover to cover.
If you're His, you won't find a single word that declares that man cooperates with God in gaining the gift of eternal life.

The only way that it's a gift, is if He is the one that is free to give it.

Again, in Calvinism, salvation is entirely arbitrary; a flip of a coin.

In "Wesleyan Arminianism" / "Molinism" / "Semi-Pelagianism" / "Traditionalism", salvation is entirely arbitrary...only man is the "arbiter" ( decides the outcome ), and not God.
The Judge of all creation takes a back seat to the will and efforts of men, who carry about, doing all kinds of "good works" for God...

All in a vain attempt at gaining His favor, and trying to get Him to save them based on those works.

Man gets to decide, while those that reject Him, don't win "the lottery".
A "lottery" that's rigged by the participants, and ends up tying God's hands behind His back... leaving selfish men to decide who is saved and who is lost.

I'm sorry, sir...
It doesn't work the way you were taught "in church".

God's word presents it much differently.

 

[Dave G]

If you are one of his elect, you are going to heaven regardless if you want to, kicking and screaming.

If you are a person who stands on the free will of man, you essentially believe that God's will and power can be thwarted or otherwise influenced to do your bidding, and your decision and efforts are what determines who gets God's favor.
No one goes to Heaven kicking and screaming, or to Hell the same way...because everyone gets what they want.

As one of God's children ( that you call a "Calvinist" ), I go where He wants, and I do it willingly, because He has changed my heart...and because He works in me, both to will and to do of His good pleasure ( Philippians 2:13 ).
My desire is now for His word and His ways, and not my old ways....He has given me a new "want to".
Not only that, I love Him... because He first loved me ( 1 John 4:19 ).

There's no "kicking and screaming" involved...only eternal gratitude for not sending me where I deserve to go.
The best part?

I get an eternal relationship with the best Friend a man could ever have.
It doesn't matter if or when I die...I know where I'm going.

Do you?

Based on what?
Something you did, or something He did?

Conversely, if you are one of his creatures he chose to take pleasure in seeing destroyed, you are eternal pulpwood, regardless if you believe "form the heart".

I would have thought you would know the answer to this, seeings as you appear to know so much about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
But, in case you do not:

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked ( Ezekiel 18:23 ), but He is also willing to show wrath, and to make His power known ( Romans 9:22 ).
He's in no way reluctant to judge those who take His laws and trample them in the mud, or who take His holiness and stomp on it.
He decides who to punish, and who to pardon.
He decides who to show His mercy and compassion to ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ), not us.

We don't get a say in the matter, as we are all guilty, and the penalty for our sin is death...
Eternal torment in the Lake of Fire ( Revelation 20:11-15 ) for our constant sin and willful rebellion against His commands...
A penalty that, were it not for His grace and mercy, all of mankind would be undone over.

In addition, all those who believe from the heart, are saved ( Romans 10:8-10 ).
Have you never read that?

If not, then I encourage you to read His words and study them intently, so as to better acquaint yourself with the God of your salvation, sir.

May He be pleased to show you many valuable and sobering truths...
There is no Good News without the bad news.

Get to know the bad news, and you will better appreciate the Good News.

 

[atpollard]

There are only three logical options:

a. All will in fact be saved.

b. God simply acts arbitrarily; exercising His pure will by randomly choosing those He will save and randomly choosing those whom He will destroy.

c. God requires something on the part of man.


I'll let the Calvinists chew on this for a while!

A. All men are sinners and children of wrath, already judged for our rebellion and condemned to eternal exile from the presence of our Creator.

B. God acts “according to the pleasure of His will” (ie. because God wants to) to grant in mercy the gift of salvation by grace through faith, through no merit in those that receive forgiveness.

C. Because of God’s grace (unmerited favor), those whom God foreknew (personal relationship), predestined, called, justified and glorified have been indwelled with His Holy Spirit to empower them to persevere in their walk as God transforms them into the image of Christ.

It isn’t a choice, it is “all of the above”.

 

[Dave G]

There are only three logical options:

a. All will in fact be saved.

b. God simply acts arbitrarily; exercising His pure will by randomly choosing those He will save and randomly choosing those whom He will destroy.

c. God requires something on the part of man.


I'll let the Calvinists chew on this for a while!

A) That is Universal Salvation.
The Bible teaches that only those that believe, shall not perish, but have everlasting life ( John 3:16 ).
"Requirement" #1, already imposed by the word of God.
How many "requirements" do you think you can meet, in order to satisfy Him and gain entrance into eternal life with Him?

After reading His word for years, I stopped at "none".

B) God acts according to His will and purposes ( Daniel 4:35, Ephesians 1:4-6 ).
He "randomly chooses" who He will save, and sends the rest to Hell, where we all belong.

Like the State with the death penalty, He decides who to show His mercy and grace to, and who to reserve for their just punishment.
I see no problem with God exercising His right to damn, and to save.
Do you?

C) God requires something only the Son of God could do... to obey God perfectly.
It is that work that the Lord looks upon, when He sees those whom He has pardoned... and not our worthless works ( Isaiah 64:6 ).

I urge you to look at what Christ has done for you, and not what you have done for Him.
"Logic" has nothing to do with it ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ).
Our works have nothing to do with it ( Titus 3:5-6 ).

The "requirements" that you might see, are, in reality, evidences that must be there, if a person is truly saved.


May God bless you.

 

[Walpole]

Please forgive my apparent tone, but:

Is it me, or do those who emphasize "free will" as being the determining factor in salvation, always believe that what they do guarantees their salvation?
Does their choice of "heads or tails" force God to flip the coin in their favor?

Scripture doesn't teach that, Walpole.
You've been sold an empty bill of goods.

I don't believe that. I am told by others that they know they are saved. I believe Christ is the judge and all will stand before Him, contrary to whether one thinks they have judged themself to already be saved.

Forget what the television and the radio say, and read His words, cover to cover.
If you're His, you won't find a single word that declares that man cooperates with God in gaining the gift of eternal life.

The only way that it's a gift, is if He is the one that is free to give it.

In "Wesleyan Arminianism" / "Molinism" / "Semi-Pelagianism" / "Traditionalism", salvation is entirely arbitrary...only man is the "arbiter" ( decides the outcome ), and not God.
The Judge of all creation takes a back seat to the will and efforts of men, who carry about, doing all kinds of "good works" for God...

All in a vain attempt at gaining His favor, and trying to get Him to save them based on those works.

Man gets to decide, while those that reject Him, don't win "the lottery".
A "lottery" that's rigged by the participants, and ends up tying God's hands behind His back... leaving selfish men to decide who is saved and who is lost.

I'm sorry, sir...
It doesn't work the way you were taught "in church".

God's word presents it much differently.

"Seek"
"Believe"
"Have faith"
"Obey the commandments"
"Be baptized"
"Forgive"
"Love"

I suppose you think these are mere suggestions? Poetic language perhaps? These are all things Christ implored man to do.


Is the Vineyard (the Kingdom of God), for the laborers or for those who do not labor?

---> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...-2&version=KJV

Is it possible to be in the Vineyard without being a laborer?

Who does the will of the Father in the Vineyard, the one who works or the one who doesn't?

---> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...32&version=ESV


Cheap grace is a false gospel. It is for those who wish to stand by idle in the marketplace while the laborers work in the Vineyard.

---> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...atthew+20:1-16

 

[Dave G]

I don't believe that. I am told by others that they know they are saved. I believe Christ is the judge and all will stand before Him, contrary to whether one thinks they have judged themself to already be saved.

But do you know that you are saved?

If so, based on what?
Your works?
Your belief?
Your enduring faith?

Get your mind off those things, and set them on Christ.
No man can have anything good, except it be from God ( John 3:27 ).

I suppose you think these are mere suggestions? Poetic language perhaps? These are all things Christ implored man to do.

I agree.
But they don't result in eternal life.

Salvation is by grace, not of works...lest any man should boast ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).

Is the Vineyard (the Kingdom of God), for the laborers or for those who do not labor?

We do His will, because we love Him, and because He works in us to do it ( Philippians 2:13 ).
Not to gain eternal life.

Those who labor do it out of gratitude, not out of fear.

Cheap grace is a false gospel.

God's grace through His Son, Jesus Christ is the only Gospel.

His grace towards His children is not cheap...it cost Him His Son for all eternity.

It is for those who wish to stand by idle in the marketplace while the laborers work in the Vineyard.

Faith without works is dead.
However, a faith that works, is a true faith that is the evidence of salvation ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

Again, who taught you that works of righteousness are what save you?
It wasn't God's word, my friend.

 

[Walpole]

If you are a person who stands on the free will of man, you essentially believe that God's will and power can be thwarted or otherwise influenced to do your bidding, and your decision and efforts are what determines who gets God's favor.

God's will is thwarted all the time. Every time you sin, you thwart God's will. That doesn't "lessen" God. For He created man free. You cannot have a moral universe unless man is free. For if man is not free, he cannot be punished or rewarded for his actions.

No one goes to Heaven kicking and screaming, or to Hell the same way...because everyone gets what they want.

Calvin's God will drag you to heaven kicking and screaming, if he has chosen you to be one of his elect. He will also send you to hell, even if you love him with all your heart, if he created you for the sheer purpose in taking pleasure in destroying.

This is Calvinism 101.

As one of God's children ( that you call a "Calvinist" ), I go where He wants, and I do it willingly, because He has changed my heart...and because He works in me, both to will and to do of His good pleasure ( Philippians 2:13 ).
My desire is now for His word and His ways, and not my old ways....He has given me a new "want to".
Not only that, I love Him... because He first loved me ( 1 John 4:19 ).

There's no "kicking and screaming" involved...only eternal gratitude for not sending me where I deserve to go.
The best part?

Calvin taught God can deceive some people into thinking they are saved and have a changed heart, only to pull the rug out from under them. How can you be sure you are his elect?


I

get an eternal relationship with the best Friend a man could ever have.
It doesn't matter if or when I die...I know where I'm going.

Do you?

No, only God knows because only God has the right to judge man's soul. Naturally I've never met a Calvinist (or non-Calvinist Protestant) who has judged himself to not be saved. How convenient!

Based on what?
Something you did, or something He did?

Both. God offers grace through His son. It is up to man to respond.

I would have thought you would know the answer to this, seeings as you appear to know so much about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
But, in case you do not:

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked ( Ezekiel 18:23 ), but He is also willing to show wrath, and to make His power known ( Romans 9:22 ).
He's in no way reluctant to judge those who take His laws and trample them in the mud, or who take His holiness and stomp on it.
He decides who to punish, and who to pardon.
He decides who to show His mercy and compassion to ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ), not us.

We don't get a say in the matter, as we are all guilty, and the penalty for our sin is death...
Eternal torment in the Lake of Fire ( Revelation 20:11-15 ) for our constant sin and willful rebellion against His commands...
A penalty that, were it not for His grace and mercy, all of mankind would be undone over.

In addition, all those who believe from the heart, are saved ( Romans 10:8-10 ).
Have you never read that?

If not, then I encourage you to read His words and study them intently, so as to better acquaint yourself with the God of your salvation, sir.

May He be pleased to show you many valuable and sobering truths...
There is no Good News without the bad news.

Get to know the bad news, and you will better appreciate the Good News.

Agreed!

 

[Dave G]

It is up to man to respond.

Then something man does, gains Him God's favor, doesn't it?

How is that fair to the other guy, if God recognizes who is the strongest or the luckiest ( or even the most willing ), and grants them eternal life because of it?

How can you be sure you are his elect?

Faith ( Hebrews 11:1 ).
In His every word ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ).
I've also believed, from the heart ( Romans 10:8-10 ).

Calvin's God will drag you to heaven kicking and screaming, if he has chosen you to be one of his elect. He will also send you to hell, even if you love him with all your heart, if he created you for the sheer purpose in taking pleasure in destroying.

No one who loves Him with all their heart, goes anywhere near Hell.

 

[Dave G]

No, only God knows because only God has the right to judge man's soul. Naturally I've never met a Calvinist (or non-Calvinist Protestant) who has judged himself to not be saved. How convenient!

Wait...you don't know if you're saved?

Then what is your salvation based on?
Is it Christ and His finished work on the cross for you, or something else?
Christ is the only one it should be, Walpole.

Here...
Read these:

John 3:36
John 5:24.
John 6:40.
John 10:28-29.
Colossians 2:13-14.

My apologies for my apparent tone, sir, and I do hope that you will forgive me for being so unfeeling with the substance of my posts in this thread.
I have a way of getting carried away with my views, and it shows in the way that I write...as if I'm walking all over people in the process.

It was not my intention going into this, I can assure you.


This is my last reply in this thread.

May God, in His mercy, grant you peace and the knowledge of Him and His word that accompanies eternal life, sir.

 

[Particular]

I don't find any place in the Bible where God lays out a list of what he is looking for in order to elect someone.
I don't expect God to reveal his method of choosing. Instead, I recognize that the Supreme King make his decision as he wills and he feels no compulsion to tell us. Nor is he obligated to tell us.
What we know is that his choice is predetermined from before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

 

[Marooncat79]

If God never ever ever saved anyone, He would still be fair. He would be giving us all what we deserve which is hell

The fact that He would save even 1 person throughout the annuls of history shows Him to be a kind, loving God.

 

[Walpole]

Wait...you don't know if you're saved?

Then what is your salvation based on?
Is it Christ and His finished work on the cross for you, or something else?
Christ is the only one it should be, Walpole.

Here...
Read these:

John 3:36
John 5:24.
John 6:40.
John 10:28-29.
Colossians 2:13-14.

My apologies for my apparent tone, sir, and I do hope that you will forgive me for being so unfeeling with the substance of my posts in this thread.
I have a way of getting carried away with my views, and it shows in the way that I write...as if I'm walking all over people in the process.

It was not my intention going into this, I can assure you.


This is my last reply in this thread.

May God, in His mercy, grant you peace and the knowledge of Him and His word that accompanies eternal life, sir.

No need to apologize. I really appreciate your sincerely and civility in this discussion. It is a welcome sight!

Couple of things:

First, if you know you are saved, what need have you then for the Christian virtue of hope?

Secondly, what gives you the right to supplant the judgement of Christ and replace it with your own judgement?

Lastly, on this notion of the "finished work on the cross" I presume you are interpreting the words of Christ on the cross, "It is finished" to mean redemption was completed at that moment? Yet we know from Scripture that the work of Christ was not finished on the Cross. For when He said those words, He had not yet died nor resurrected. The story did not end there...

"The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (Luke 24:7)

As St. Paul said, if Christ had not risen, our faith is in vain and we are still in our sins. (cf. 1 Cor 15:17)

"...Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification."(Romans 4:25)


In light of this, what do you think was "finished" on Calvary?

 

[Walpole]

If God never ever ever saved anyone, He would still be fair. He would be giving us all what we deserve which is hell

The fact that He would save even 1 person throughout the annuls of history shows Him to be a kind, loving God.

If you think God created you for the sheer pleasure in destroying you, you have a warped concept of God.

God created man out of love, not hate. God is love and love is generative.