What is God's criterion for election?

[Walpole]

Did God give the 10 Commandments?

Yes, of course.

Did God expect man to obey?

Yes, of course. For the commandments were given so that man gets the maximum happiness out of life. They order and keep man in God's design for his behavior both toward his Creator and his fellow man.

"Ye shall observe to do therefore as the Lord your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. Ye shall walk in all the ways which the Lord your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess." (Deut 5:32-33)


"For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God." (1 Cor 7:19)

Had anyone ever kept the Commandments fully?

Yes, of course. Here is one example:

Of Zacharias and Elizabeth, St. Luke said, "Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’'s commands and decrees blamelessly." (Luke 1:6)

You says Xians can fully keep the
Commandments?

Yes, of course.

What kind of God do you have who gives man commandments He knows man is not even capable of keeping?

Then there is no need for Jesus as your High Priest. Do you believe that?

No, I believe Jesus Christ is THE High Priest.

I John 1:8 says that “if we say we have no sin, we lie and the truth is not in us”. Who is the Truth? Is it not Jesus?

Do you still believe that we can fully keep the Moral Law of God?

Yes, of course.

If you are genuinely struggling with failing to worship God, blaspheming Him, failing to honor your parents, murdering people, lying, stealing, committing adultery and coveting, I suggest your time would be better spent in prayer and not on internet forums.

 

[Walpole]

King David said the he was born in sin

David is referencing the sin that all men are born into: Original sin.

He is not referring to actual sin, which Calvinist believe man commits just by the sheer fact that he exists. Such a position renders God the author of sin. Actual sin involves a positive act of the will. (cf. Is 7:15)

 

[Reformed1689]

Please, what is the CRITERION for God electing one to salvation but another to damnation.

I don't know how more clear I can make this. We don't have criteria that God uses. He chooses whoever he wills for his own good purposes and pleasure and ultimately for his glory. End of story.

 

[Walpole]

I don't know how more clear I can make this. We don't have criteria that God uses. He chooses whoever he wills for his own good purposes and pleasure and ultimately for his glory. End of story.

So God just arbitrarily and randomly chooses, rendering salvation a mere flip of a coin?


Have you ever heard of Jesus Christ and His teachings?

 

[Reformed1689]

Have you ever heard of Jesus Christ and His teachings?

???? What is this supposed to mean, of COURSE I have heard of Jesus and his teachings. What is your point?

 

[Reformed1689]

So God just arbitrarily and randomly chooses, rendering salvation a mere flip of a coin?

Is that what I said? No. You are putting words in my mouth. What I said was we do not know the criteria God uses to choose.

 

[Walpole]

Is that what I said? No. You are putting words in my mouth. What I said was we do not know the criteria God uses to choose.

You said, "He chooses whoever he wills for his own good purposes and pleasure and ultimately for his glory. End of story."

That means God acts arbitrarily, with pure will. It renders salvation nothing more than a flip of the coin.

 

[atpollard]

What kind of God would command something He knows man is not even capable of doing? A cruel, evil and tyrannical one.

A God that had a purpose other than obedience in mind when He gave the command.
What does Paul tell us the purpose of the Law is? Was it given for men to perfectly obey and earn salvation?

 

[Walpole]

???? What is this supposed to mean, of COURSE I have heard of Jesus and his teachings. What is your point?

Good. My point is this Calvinist concept of a God who acts arbitrarily with pure will is demonstrably false by virtue of the incarnation of Jesus Christ, who came to give man the ability to become sons of God and thereby live with Him in all eternity.

 

[canadyjd]

I wish to understand what, if anything, do Calvinists reckon is God's criterion for salvation.
His decree to save one man and damn another is based on what, according to you?
Thank you.

I understand that if someone believes they control their own salvation then they must identify what the criteria is by which God will choose them for salvation. For those who believe the doctrines of grace as taught in scripture, there is no need to know why, only that the grace of God has been poured out upon them.

For those trying to answer whether or not they are saved, some will proclaim all the things they have done. Those who embrace the doctrines if grace should be satisfied that indwelling Holy Spirit testifies with their spirit that they are the children of God.

If God chooses someone for salvation based on something that they do, you have a works based salvation. If God chooses based on His purpose, His will, you have grace.

No choice of God is arbitrary. God doesn't flip coins to make decisions. God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, as some have stated.

Everything God does furthers His purposes, including those He chooses for salvation. Ultimately, God's purposes result in His glory. God will have a people who will worship Him in spirit and truth. God will fill heaven with those who love Him and are called for that purpose.

Peace to you

 

[Reformed1689]

You said, "He chooses whoever he wills for his own good purposes and pleasure and ultimately for his glory. End of story."

That means God acts arbitrarily, with pure will. It renders salvation nothing more than a flip of the coin.

No, it means we don't know.

 

[Reformed1689]

Good. My point is this Calvinist concept of a God who acts arbitrarily with pure will is demonstrably false by virtue of the incarnation of Jesus Christ, who came to give man the ability to become sons of God and thereby live with Him in all eternity.

How does that go against the Doctrines of Grace? It doesn't.

 

[atpollard]

If you are genuinely struggling with failing to worship God, blaspheming Him, failing to honor your parents, murdering people, lying, stealing, committing adultery and coveting, I suggest your time would be better spent in prayer and not on internet forums.

Murder ... "You have heard that our ancestors were told, 'You must not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.' But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell. [Mat 5:21-22 NLT]

Adultery ... "You have heard the commandment that says, 'You must not commit adultery.' But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. [Mat 5:27-28 NLT]

Divorce ... "You have heard the law that says, 'A man can divorce his wife by merely giving her a written notice of divorce.' But I say that a man who divorces his wife, unless she has been unfaithful, causes her to commit adultery. And anyone who marries a divorced woman also commits adultery. [Mat 5:31-32 NLT]

[Mat 5:43-45 NLT] "You have heard the law that says, 'Love your neighbor' and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. ... Do you love your enemies here on this site? (and these are other Christians).

My point is ... Who doesn't struggle to live up to God's standard?

 

[canadyjd]

What kind of God would command something He knows man is not even capable of doing? A cruel, evil and tyrannical one..... (1 John 5:2-3)

When the rich young ruler came to Jesus and asked what he must do to be saved, how did Jesus answer?

He told the man to keep the commandments. Did Jesus understand that by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified before God? Why did He say keep the commandments?

Was Jesus being cruel, evil, and tyrannical, as you said....if God commands someone to do something they are not capable of?

Peace to you

 

[Walpole]

A God that had a purpose other than obedience in mind when He gave the command.

Then they are not really commandments if God does not expect them to be followed or if God knows man is incapable of following them. They are merely suggestions.

The logical consequence of such a belief renders repentance an absurdity. For repentance presumes there is something transgressed. What is that something?

(Answer: The commandments)

What does Paul tell us the purpose of the Law is? Was it given for men to perfectly obey and earn salvation?

Yes, for St. Paul plainly states, "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God." (1 Cor 7:19)

Furthermore, the Apostle gives a dire warning to the faithful at Corinth and Galatia that if they do not keep the commands of God, they will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

--> 1 Cor 6:9-10

--> Gal 5:19-21

 

[Walpole]

Murder ... "You have heard that our ancestors were told, 'You must not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.' But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell. [Mat 5:21-22 NLT]

Adultery ... "You have heard the commandment that says, 'You must not commit adultery.' But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. [Mat 5:27-28 NLT]

Divorce ... "You have heard the law that says, 'A man can divorce his wife by merely giving her a written notice of divorce.' But I say that a man who divorces his wife, unless she has been unfaithful, causes her to commit adultery. And anyone who marries a divorced woman also commits adultery. [Mat 5:31-32 NLT]

[Mat 5:43-45 NLT] "You have heard the law that says, 'Love your neighbor' and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. ... Do you love your enemies here on this site? (and these are other Christians).

My point is ... Who doesn't struggle to live up to God's standard?

Again, if you are genuinely struggling with these, I would strongly suggest your time would be better spent in prayer and not on internet forums.

 

[Walpole]

No, it means we don't know.

By virtue of Christ becoming man, we do know. For He has revealed it to us in the Person of Jesus Christ.

This is Christianity 101.

 

[Walpole]

How does that go against the Doctrines of Grace? It doesn't.

It goes against the Calvinist concept of a God who acts arbitrarily with pure will.

For all grace comes through Jesus Christ. (cf. John 1:17)

 

[Reformed1689]

By virtue of Christ becoming man, we do know. For He has revealed it to us in the Person of Jesus Christ.

This is Christianity 101.

Ok, but if God chose everyone to be saved all WOULD be saved. Obviously that is not the case, so no, this has no bearing on what you are trying to say.

 

[Reformed1689]

It goes against the Calvinist concept of a God who acts arbitrarily with pure will.

For all grace comes through Jesus Christ. (cf. John 1:17)

That still doesn't say who was chosen for salvation.