What is God's criterion for election?

[Walpole]

That still doesn't say who was chosen for salvation.

That's the point! God did not arbitrarily create some to be saved while others for the sheer pleasure in seeing them destroyed. (Calvin's teaching.)

Salvation is offered to all through the Person of Jesus Christ.

This is Christianity 101.

 

[Reformed1689]

That's the point! God did not arbitrarily create some to be saved while others for the sheer pleasure in seeing them destroyed. (Calvin's teaching.)

Salvation is offered to all through the Person of Jesus Christ.

This is Christianity 101.

First of all, it's not Calvin's teaching. It's Biblical. See Romans 9.
Second, available to all? Sure, but are all chosen for it? No. World Series tickets are available to all to purchase, but not all are able to. Some are chosen to actually receive those tickets.

 

[Walpole]

First of all, it's not Calvin's teaching. It's Biblical. See Romans 9.

Sorry but the notion that God arbitrarily chose to create some for election while others for the sheer pleasure in seeing them destroyed is Calvin's teaching, not the Bible's.

Romans 9 actually refutes Calvin's teaching...

---> Here

Second, available to all? Sure, but are all chosen for it? No. World Series tickets are available to all to purchase, but not all are able to. Some are chosen to actually receive those tickets.

Yes, available to ALL men.

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18)

Some choose to believe; others choose not to...

"If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." (John 10:37-38)

 

[Reformed1689]

Sorry but the notion that God arbitrarily chose to create some for election while others for the sheer pleasure in seeing them destroyed is Calvin's teaching, not the Bible's.

Romans 9 actually refutes Calvin's teaching...

---> Here

Your post there holds nothing and shows a severe lack of understanding on that passage. Who said anything about defective pottery? And IF they turn away. That's not the question. The question is do they even have the capacity to do so. Is it their will to do so? That's the question. And quit getting hung up on the name Calvin. He wasn't the first to introduce the doctrine. The Scriptures introduce it.

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18)

Some choose to believe; others choose not to...

Nobody argues about choice. You realize this right?

 

[MB]

MB, is faith all about the experience we have? If so, then theology is irrelevant and our experience is the only thing that matters. All we need, then, is to experience God and get the correct methodology to experience him and we're good.
However, God reveals himself, not solely in experience (plus our feelings are fickle), but mostly in scripture, God's word to mankind.
Does God say he chooses?
Does God say he predestines?
Does God say he wills and ordains?
The answer is yes to all the above. Our feelings and response come because God did something in us...first.
MB, you have created a strawman to lean on. That is your problem, not mine. Your hatred of John Calvin is on you. I don't worship John Calvin. Therefore your complaint is silly to me. Let us exegete scripture and let scripture determine what is true. I am willing to do that. I couldn't care less about Calvin or Arminius. It has nothing to do with what God says. So, please stop using Calvin as your crutch. Let us examine scripture alone.

Straw man Your making me Laugh again. This term is used by all clavinist to imply my doctrine is false. It makes me laugh because none of them have ever proven it to be false.

God has already chosen to save all that are willing.. God has predestined us. and some never realize there destiny He has done all this because we might believe. Yet here you are saying this is all a straw man. My complaint isn't about John Calvin but the doctrine he promoted. There isn't much truth in it.
John Calvin is dead and gone. He didn't pen Calvinism anyway. Maybe people started calling it Calvinism because it was what he taught. He was a scoundrel at best. Forcing his doctrines on the Swiss. This doctrine was created by Augustine and though he might have meant well he wasn't all that bright. He taught that people are saved by baptism. And believed in infant baptism. Neither can be found in scripture. None of the tulip can be found in scripture because it is man made and nothing more than commentary of what Augustine's thoughts were on it. After He invented the doctrine of the RCC. We all agree that it's false.

We all have freewill though I don't understand anyone denying it. It's as plain as the nose on your face.
Irresistible grace makes us nothing more than robots wondering around with no real purpose. Bumpping into each other everyday not having any intelligence at all unless God programs us. Now this is a real straw man. it's not that God can't make us all do what he wishes. Certainly He could although you cannot convince me that He does. If God were irresistibe then how is that old Satan does as He wishes.Or how was it that Jonah refused to go to Nineveh. God punished him for sure yet he did resist God. So did the Pharaoh of Egypt. In fact God even harden his heart even more so that he wouldn't give up until God wanted him to.
All of Jerusalem resisted;
Mat_23:37 'Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee, how often did I will to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not will.
Luk_13:34 'Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that is killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto her, how often did I will to gather together thy children, as a hen her brood under the wings, and ye did not will.
To this day Jerusalem resist God's will for them.
So how does irresistibly work with so many resisting God.?

My Pastor has sent some people here for me to help out. I will respond with more tomorrow..
MB

 

[Particular]

Straw man Your making me Laugh again. This term is used by all clavinist to imply my doctrine is false. It makes me laugh because none of them have ever proven it to be false.

God has already chosen to save all that are willing.. God has predestined us. and some never realize there destiny He has done all this because we might believe. Yet here you are saying this is all a straw man. My complaint isn't about John Calvin but the doctrine he promoted. There isn't much truth in it.
John Calvin is dead and gone. He didn't pen Calvinism anyway. Maybe people started calling it Calvinism because it was what he taught. He was a scoundrel at best. Forcing his doctrines on the Swiss. This doctrine was created by Augustine and though he might have meant well he wasn't all that bright. He taught that people are saved by baptism. And believed in infant baptism. Neither can be found in scripture. None of the tulip can be found in scripture because it is man made and nothing more than commentary of what Augustine's thoughts were on it. After He invented the doctrine of the RCC. We all agree that it's false.

We all have freewill though I don't understand anyone denying it. It's as plain as the nose on your face.
Irresistible grace makes us nothing more than robots wondering around with no real purpose. Bumpping into each other everyday not having any intelligence at all unless God programs us. Now this is a real straw man. it's not that God can't make us all do what he wishes. Certainly He could although you cannot convince me that He does. If God were irresistibe then how is that old Satan does as He wishes.Or how was it that Jonah refused to go to Nineveh. God punished him for sure yet he did resist God. So did the Pharaoh of Egypt. In fact God even harden his heart even more so that he wouldn't give up until God wanted him to.
All of Jerusalem resisted;
Mat_23:37 'Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee, how often did I will to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not will.
Luk_13:34 'Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that is killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto her, how often did I will to gather together thy children, as a hen her brood under the wings, and ye did not will.
To this day Jerusalem resist God's will for them.
So how does irresistibly work with so many resisting God.?

My Pastor has sent some people here for me to help out. I will respond with more tomorrow..
MB

MB, you are misunderstanding what Christ was referring to when he wept over Jerusalem. I will not attempt to correct your misunderstanding as it seems you have a bigoted spirit toward anyone who believes that God is Supreme and Sovereign over all creation.
It does not bother me that you have a different opinion. It bothers me that your spirit is mean and vindictive against others who don't view scripture with your lens. I cannot change your attitude. That's for you to work out.

 

[Marooncat79]

Why do you need a High Priest if you do not sin?

 

[Reformed1689]

This doctrine was created by Augustine and though he might have meant well he wasn't all that bright.

First, it wasn't created by Augustine. It's in Scripture. Second, ad hominem attacks on somone who has been dead for centuries is pretty lame.

None of the tulip can be found in scripture because it is man made and nothing more than commentary of what Augustine's thoughts were on it.

This is just nonsense. It's all found in Scripture as has been pointed out. And you do not believe ANY of the five points? None at all?

We all have freewill though I don't understand anyone denying it.

People who hold to the doctrine's of grace do not deny free will. I don't know why you keep trying to make that argument.

 

[Marooncat79]

you are genuinely struggling with failing to worship God, blaspheming Him, failing to honor your parents, murdering people, lying, stealing, committing adultery and coveting, I suggest your time would be better spent in prayer a

Incorrect assumption on your part

I know I am a sinner and sin everyday.

You seem to indicate that you are now sinless

 

[Marooncat79]

David is referencing the sin that all men are born into: Original sin.

He is not referring to actual sin, which Calvinist believe man commits just by the sheer fact that he exists. Such a position renders God the author of sin. Actual sin involves a positive act of the will. (cf. Is 7:15)

Correct

 

[Marooncat79]

You said, "He chooses whoever he wills for his own good purposes and pleasure and ultimately for his glory. End of story."

That means God acts arbitrarily, with pure will. It renders salvation nothing more than a flip of the coin.

Incorrect, it makes christians the apple of Gods eye

 

[Marooncat79]

Straw man Your making me Laugh again. This term is used by all clavinist to imply my doctrine is false. It makes me laugh because none of them have ever proven it to be false.

God has already chosen to save all that are willing.. God has predestined us. and some never realize there destiny He has done all this because we might believe. Yet here you are saying this is all a straw man. My complaint isn't about John Calvin but the doctrine he promoted. There isn't much truth in it.
John Calvin is dead and gone. He didn't pen Calvinism anyway. Maybe people started calling it Calvinism because it was what he taught. He was a scoundrel at best. Forcing his doctrines on the Swiss. This doctrine was created by Augustine and though he might have meant well he wasn't all that bright. He taught that people are saved by baptism. And believed in infant baptism. Neither can be found in scripture. None of the tulip can be found in scripture because it is man made and nothing more than commentary of what Augustine's thoughts were on it. After He invented the doctrine of the RCC. We all agree that it's false.

We all have freewill though I don't understand anyone denying it. It's as plain as the nose on your face.
Irresistible grace makes us nothing more than robots wondering around with no real purpose. Bumpping into each other everyday not having any intelligence at all unless God programs us. Now this is a real straw man. it's not that God can't make us all do what he wishes. Certainly He could although you cannot convince me that He does. If God were irresistibe then how is that old Satan does as He wishes.Or how was it that Jonah refused to go to Nineveh. God punished him for sure yet he did resist God. So did the Pharaoh of Egypt. In fact God even harden his heart even more so that he wouldn't give up until God wanted him to.
All of Jerusalem resisted;
Mat_23:37 'Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee, how often did I will to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not will.
Luk_13:34 'Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that is killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto her, how often did I will to gather together thy children, as a hen her brood under the wings, and ye did not will.
To this day Jerusalem resist God's will for them.
So how does irresistibly work with so many resisting God.?

My Pastor has sent some people here for me to help out. I will respond with more tomorrow..
MB

John 1:12-13 says salvation is not by the will of man as does Romans 9

 

[rlvaughn]

On the other side, man's salvation is based entirely on the flip of a coin...

Only that "flip" is determined by men, and not God.

I heard it was based on a vote. God votes for you. The devil votes against you. Vote for yourself and you're elected!

 

[tyndale1946]

I heard it was based on a vote. God votes for you. The devil votes against you. Vote for yourself and you're elected!

Then you can sing that old gospel hymn!... I did it my way!... Brother Glen

 

[David Kent]

God is simple, eternal and unchanging. God, by definition, is existence itself. Hence, if God changed, he would not be God.

I have enjoyed your posts.

God bless.

You may be simple but God is not. Your gods are the wafer, the pope and the woman.

 

[David Kent]

King David said the he was born in sin

Every one is born in sin which they inherited from Adam.

 

[David Kent]

What kind of God would command something He knows man is not even capable of doing? A cruel, evil and tyrannical one.

A cruel evil and tyrannical god is the one of the papists that murdered millions of Christians through the ages, and has never repented.

 

[David Kent]

Yes, of course.

What kind of God do you have who gives man commandments He knows man is not even capable of keeping?

Have you kept every one of the commandments? If you say you have you are a liar or deceived.
A preacher I know asked an othodox Jew if he has kept all the commandments, and he replied that he was 99% per cent sure that he had. My friend thai I am 200% percent sure you havn't and I am sure the Post Office would agree with be as when I send you a letter, you steam the envelope open and then insert you rreply, reseal it and write "Not known, return to sender" on the envelope and post it back to me.
Christ is the only one who has kept all the commandments.

 

[atpollard]

Again, if you are genuinely struggling with these, I would strongly suggest your time would be better spent in prayer and not on internet forums.

Passive-aggressive responses are not “loving your enemies, and praying for them”. Your words condemn you with the same finger you point at others.

You might want to take your own advice because I believe Jesus said something about the Law and Prophets being summed up in the command to Love ... something that you seem to struggle with.

Fortunately, I have no delusions about being “innately good” or not struggling with sin, so I can at least avoid your patent hypocrisy.

 

[Particular]

David is referencing the sin that all men are born into: Original sin.

He is not referring to actual sin, which Calvinist believe man commits just by the sheer fact that he exists. Such a position renders God the author of sin. Actual sin involves a positive act of the will. (cf. Is 7:15)

First, I doubt Calvinists teach what you claim.
Second, if you purchase a computer with a flaw in it because a hacker installed a virus into it, is the computer perfect when it comes out of the box?