What is meant by Cals when they ask: do you believe "by our own ability?"

[quantumfaith]

Answer Icon's question. The Noncalvinists on this board have affirmed that faith is a natural quality, that men were created with it, and that all are born with it, and that it is within the power of the flesh to exercise it, like eating and breathing.

Calvinists say the exact opposite in agreement with Paul who said, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [faith] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

That would be me (at least, I won't speak for anyone else). I see nothing that you or anyone else has argued that can dispel the notion that the ability to have faith and belief was removed in the fall.

It is rather childish (intellectually speaking) of you to attempt to pigeonhole Skan into that position.

 

[Winman]

I think the one mixed up here is you. You've continued to errantly present what I and others do/believe/preach.

Also, we are asked to see whether we be in the faith.

Now, I actually gave you passages proving faith a gift of God, not some inward magical potion we possess:

Romans 10:17; 2 Peter 1:2; Romans 12:3; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 1:29.

It is non-cals, and free-willers who have lended to the false notions of faith seen along the theological landscape, that it is some magical force, resulting in Word-Faith, toxic-faith, a God who cannot do a thing without our faith (Copelandism) and other erroneous views of faith, rather than it being a gift of God, soberly understood as coming from Him, not from "within."

The fact is that this faith has been distorted into turning God into a bellhop and powerless unless we exercise this "magical substance." So, in fact, it again, stems from free-will/non-cal theological camps.

The only verse that can remotely be interpreted to say faith is a gift is Eph. 2:8 which scholars have disagreed on for centuries. I believe (along with many others) that the free gift spoken of is salvation, not faith.

On the other hand, there are many verses that clearly show faith belongs to the individual.

Mat 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Mk 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.

Lk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Mt 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Llk 8:25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

This is just a portion of the many verses of scripture that shows faith belongs to the individual. And you know what all these verses I have posted have in common? They were all said by Jesus!

And Luke 8:25 would not make sense if your doctrine is true. Why would Jesus ask his disciples where there faith was? Wouldn't he know that he did not give them faith in this instance?

The scriptures also say Jesus marvelled at some people's faith.

Mt 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

If Jesus gave this centurion his great faith, why would he marvel?

Mk 6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Why did Jesus marvel at his fellow countrymen's unbelief? Did he forget faith had not been given to them?

You base your whole doctrine on one verse that has been debated for centuries, and completely ignore literally dozens of verses that directly say faith belongs to the individual. Either you are ignorant of the scriptures, or you willingly disregard many scriptures that refutes your view.

 

[Aaron]

That would be me (at least, I won't speak for anyone else). I see nothing that you or anyone else has argued that can dispel the notion that the ability to have faith and belief was removed in the fall.

Do you see anything that inspires the notion it was there in beginning? Did Adam have faith in God, or was his knowledge of God by sight?

It doesn't appear to me he believed God's warning that he would die if he ate the fruit.

It is rather childish (intellectually speaking) of you to attempt to pigeonhole Skan into that position.

If he's pigeonholed, he did it to himself.

He can say, Yes, faith is a natural ability, as you have done here, and as DHK has asserted elsewhere, or He can say, no, it is not a natural ability anymore than the gifts of prophecy or healing or tongues.

Then we can deal with the implications of such assertions.

 

[DHK]

Answer Icon's question. The Noncalvinists on this board have affirmed that faith is a natural quality, that men were created with it, and that all are born with it, and that it is within the power of the flesh to exercise it, like eating and breathing.

Calvinists say the exact opposite in agreement with Paul who said, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [faith] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For by grace are you saved.
You are saved is the is the subject and verb of this sentence. All the focus is right here.
"By grace" is a prepositional phrase defining the verb telling how one is saved."

For by grace are you saved through faith.

You are saved through faith. "through faith" is another prepositional phrase defining the verb telling the means by which one is saved.

IT (salvation) is the gift of God.
This is another sentence. It is the subject going back to the subject and verb of the previous sentence--salvation. Salvation is the gift of God.

Faith is never described as the gift of God in the Bible. It is only a gift when it is one of the spiritual gifts which have now ceased, and was only given to believers, never to an unbeliever. It is one of the fruit of the Spirit. It is not something that is given to the unsaved--never. You won't find this concept anywhere in the Bible. Built from this verse it is unbiblical, and is not even grammatically correct.

The verse goes on.
"and that not of yourselves." Salvation is not of oneself. You can't make it on your own. This has nothing to do with faith. It has to do with merit. There is nothing that man can do to gain entrance to heaven. It is not of oneself.

 

[Aaron]

"That" is a demonstrative pronoun that refers to salvation by grace through faith. There's not one part of it that is of yourself, neither the salvation, the grace nor the faith.

 

[DHK]

"That" is a demonstrative pronoun that refers to salvation by grace through faith. There's not one part of it that is of yourself, neither the salvation, the grace nor the faith.

Agreed.
So contrary to your previous statement:

and that [faith] not of yourselves:

"That" does not refer to "faith" but rather to salvation, as you posted here.

 

[quantumfaith]

Do you see anything that inspires the notion it was there in beginning? Did Adam have faith in God, or was his knowledge of God by sight?

It doesn't appear to me he believed God's warning that he would die if he ate the fruit.

If he's pigeonholed, he did it to himself.

He can say, Yes, faith is a natural ability, as you have done here, and as DHK has asserted elsewhere, or He can say, no, it is not a natural ability anymore than the gifts of prophecy or healing or tongues.

Then we can deal with the implications of such assertions.

Or possibly he indeed believed God, but CHOSE to rebel. Yes I say it is a natural ability (granted by God by design) from the very beginning. No, I don't think he is pigeonholed, I think that is what you were trying to assert with your argument.

 

[quantumfaith]

Agreed.
So contrary to your previous statement:

and that [faith] not of yourselves:

"That" does not refer to "faith" but rather to salvation, as you posted here.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

The word “that” is a neuter gender. There are different forms of this word, masculine, feminine, and neuter. If it were a feminine form of the word, then it would refer to “faith”, which is also a feminine word. But because it is “neuter”, it is referring to the act of being saved.
Our salvation does not come from us, it comes from God. We do not save ourselves, God saves us.

 

[Aaron]

Agreed.
So contrary to your previous statement:

and that [faith] not of yourselves:

"That" does not refer to "faith" but rather to salvation, as you posted here.

:laugh: You need to read it again. It's the whole kit and kaboodle, the salvation and every part of it, grace and faith. None of it is of yourself.

 

[DHK]

:laugh: You need to read it again. It's the whole kit and kaboodle, the salvation and every part of it, grace and faith. None of it is of yourself.

You misunderstand the non-Cal position.
Salvation is all of God. We all agree on that. There is no quarrel here. On that point you simply argue with yourself. No one is disagreeing with you.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. (Romans 11:6)
Salvation is by grace. Grace and works do not mix. We know by this verse that Grace is not a human work. It is the work of God; the work of Christ on the cross.

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:28-29)
--The Jews asked "What shall we do?
They believed salvation was by good works.

Jesus uses a play on words. The only thing the could "DO" was to "believe."
Believing or having faith is not a work. This is the teaching of Christ.
Faith is not a work of man.
Neither grace nor faith are works of man.

Salvation is all of God--completely of God.

Man is born with an innate ability to believe. But it is not a work. What work do you do to "have faith?" Who would hire you and for how much "to have faith"? It is not work or a work that can be done.

Salvation is all of God. When you accuse a non-Cal of believing that it isn't, then you make a false accusation. He doesn't believe that; he believes the same as you do--salvation is all of God--from the beginning to the end.

 

[Aaron]

Whatever, DHK. On one hand you say it isn't of yourself, and on the other you say it is.

My question was posed to Scandal.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am not Bro. Skan, but I, being a FW'er, believe that faith is a gift of God.





Well, Brother, faith comes from one of two sources(well, only one REAL source, but for argument's sake), either "A" from God, or "B", from man. I choose "A" because it states it that way.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: yes Willis.....................

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon, I don't know about Skan, but I DO think it is a natural inherent property of all mankind, perhaps part of the imago dei.

Quantum,

Our wills were not immune from the effects of the fall.When people speak of Human Inability, or Total deprvity.....they are refering to the fact that the Image in man has been twisted and perverted by the fall.....

Whatever Adam's will was before the fall, while still untested.....no longer exists. We are being restored as image bearers In Christ...conformed to His image......is it okay if I say we as believers are .....predestined to be conformed to His image:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

For by grace are you saved.
You are saved is the is the subject and verb of this sentence. All the focus is right here.
"By grace" is a prepositional phrase defining the verb telling how one is saved."

For by grace are you saved through faith.

You are saved through faith. "through faith" is another prepositional phrase defining the verb telling the means by which one is saved.

IT (salvation) is the gift of God.
This is another sentence. It is the subject going back to the subject and verb of the previous sentence--salvation. Salvation is the gift of God.

Faith is never described as the gift of God in the Bible. It is only a gift when it is one of the spiritual gifts which have now ceased, and was only given to believers, never to an unbeliever. It is one of the fruit of the Spirit. It is not something that is given to the unsaved--never. You won't find this concept anywhere in the Bible. Built from this verse it is unbiblical, and is not even grammatically correct.

The verse goes on.
"and that not of yourselves." Salvation is not of oneself. You can't make it on your own. This has nothing to do with faith. It has to do with merit. There is nothing that man can do to gain entrance to heaven. It is not of oneself.

Saving faith is a part of the gift of salvation, as is saving repentance.....when Jesus saves us..we get the whole package...not just part of it.

 

[DHK]

Saving faith is a part of the gift of salvation, as is saving repentance.....when Jesus saves us..we get the whole package...not just part of it.

Repent and be saved.
Believe and be saved.

The commands precede the reward (salvation).
God does't give you a reward in order for you to get a reward.
He commands you to obey in order to receive a reward.

The reward is salvation in obedience to his command.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

 

[Skandelon]

He can say, Yes, faith is a natural ability

But what does that even mean? What is a NATURAL ability when God is the creator of that ability? You guys want to separate everything into your systematized dogma.

Here are the God given abilities in this box, and over here in this box are the natural abilities. What the HECK is the FREAKIN difference when God is the giver of both? If God gives you the ability when your born versus when you turn 12, what difference does it make, it is FROM HIM and He deserves all the credit. If one person places their faith in Budda and not Christ, is that God's fault for not giving Him something he gave you? IF SO, it sounds like a pretty darn good excuse for Buddhists on judgement day, doesn't it?

Explain something to me: Why do some seem to suppose that men get the credit for things they do as a result of their abilities given to them from the womb, but God gets the credit for their abilities supernaturally and irresistibly applied sometime later in life? That makes NO SENSE!

Whether you believe in God as a result of an ability he granted to you from the womb verses an ability he granted to you later in life, it is still OF GOD. The real question is whether the gift of this ability is effectual/irresistible, which begs the second question:

Why does a GIFT have to be effectually applied for the giver to be given full glory for giving it? If I give Aaron and Quantum SuperBowl tickets and Aaron in his dislike of me refuses it, would it make Quantum any less grateful? Would it make the gift or the giver any less good? Would Aaron rejection of my gift make Quantum any more deserving to have been offered the gift to begin with?

The grace to believe in Christ comes through the gracious gift of the powerful Gospel, period. How can they believe in one they have not heard? I suspect we have WAYYY over complicated this very simple truth in order to make the man-made doctrinal system all work together.

 

[Iconoclast]

Repent and be saved.
Believe and be saved.

The commands precede the reward (salvation).
God does't give you a reward in order for you to get a reward.
He commands you to obey in order to receive a reward.

The reward is salvation in obedience to his command.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

DHK... consider these..

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[Skandelon]

:laugh: You need to read it again. It's the whole kit and kaboodle, the salvation and every part of it, grace and faith. None of it is of yourself.

Can someone please tell me just ONE thing the is "of yourself," except sin and rebellion???

 

[DHK]

DHK... consider these..

Considering Acts 11:18--"God granting repentance"; it is awkwardly worded here. The meaning is: "to be willing to pardon upon repentance," according to Jamieson, Faucett and Brown (staunch Calvinists). God, at this point in history was willing to pardon repentance to the Gentiles. The time that the gospel; the time for the Gentiles to repent and believe the gospel; had come. It was no longer for the Jews only, but now for the Jews and the Greeks (Gentiles).

 

[Iconoclast]

Considering Acts 11:18--"God granting repentance"; it is awkwardly worded here. The meaning is: "to be willing to pardon upon repentance," according to Jamieson, Faucett and Brown (staunch Calvinists). God, at this point in history was willing to pardon repentance to the Gentiles. The time that the gospel; the time for the Gentiles to repent and believe the gospel; had come. It was no longer for the Jews only, but now for the Jews and the Greeks (Gentiles).

18And they, having heard these things, were silent, and were glorifying God, saying, `Then, indeed, also to the nations did God give the reformation to life.' [/QUOTE]

John Gill
[QUOTEsaying, then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto
life.
The phrase "unto life", is left out in the Ethiopic version, which only reads, "God hath also given to the Gentiles that they should repent"; but it ought not to be omitted, being in the Greek copies in general, and of considerable moment, rightly understood; the Arabic version directs to a wrong sense of it, "perhaps God hath given also to the Gentiles repentance, that they may live by it"; the word "perhaps", is very wrongly put instead of "then", which affirms that God had given them repentance, whereas this makes a doubt of it; and upon a supposition of it, the version ascribes too much to it; for it is not by repentance that men live spiritually, but by faith in Christ Jesus; nor do they obtain eternal life by it, but by Christ; though true repentance is an evidence of spiritual life, and it begins with it, for as soon as ever God quickens a sinner, he shows him the evil of sin, and gives him repentance for it: "repentance" here designs the grace of evangelical repentance, which is attended with faith in Christ, as it was in these Gentiles, and with views of pardon in Christ, and which springs from the love of God, and this is "unto life"; is a repentance from dead works, and is attended with a life of faith, and issues in eternal life: and it is also a "grant" from God; it is not in the power of man's free will, who though he may have time and means, yet if he has not grace given him to repent, he never will; his heart is hard and obdurate, and no means will do without an almighty power; not the most severe judgments, nor the greatest mercies, nor the most powerful ministry; grace, and a blessing of the covenant of grace: and this being given to Gentiles, shows that the covenant of grace belongs to them, as well as to the Jews; anit is a pure gift of God's free d discovers a false opinion of the Jews, that the Gentiles should not be saved; and answers the design of the Gospel being sent among them, whereby the doctrines both of repentance and remission are preached unto them; and opens the glorious mystery of the calling of them, and may encourage sinners of the Gentiles to hope for this grace, and apply to Christ for it, who is exalted to give it.]

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
They held their peace - Their prejudices were confounded; they considered the subject, and saw that it was from God; then they glorified him, because they saw that he had granted unto the Gentiles repentance unto life

Repentance is God's gift; not only his free grace accepts it, but his mighty grace works it in us, grace takes away the heart of stone, and gives us a heart of flesh. The sacrifice of God is a broken spirit.

matthew henry

DHK...scroll down on this link;
http://bible.cc/acts/11-18.htm