What is meant by Cals when they ask: do you believe "by our own ability?"

[jbh28]

His position is that "God grants repentance". I deduce the rest. If God simply grants it or gives it, then why should I have to repent. God has already done it for me. He has "given it to me"--granted me repentance. I am off the hook.

Well, I can't speak for him, but I can say for me that I'm still repenting. God is giving me the ability to repent. He's changing me so that I can see my sin differently and therefore repent. Hence, repentance is a gift. That's at least how I see it. I would say be careful in deducing a statement. Remember, you are looking at it from a different perspective. This is where a lot of misrepresentation comes from on both sides. You look at a statement and come to a very logical conclusion to you because of your perspective, but I come to a different one because of mine. We have to be careful here.

God doesn't do things without reason. Calvinism takes away the reason.

I don't see any "reason" that Calvinism takes away. I nor any Calvinist that I know believes that God does something arbitrarily.

In reality:
Repentance is not a gift; neither is faith.
Salvation is certainly the gift of God.
For by grace are ye saved through faith.

Well, this is where we disagree, but it appears by your statements above that you might not understand what we mean, or at least how I see it. There are some things that I differ with other Calvinist because I don't' attempt to line up with Calvinism. I believe the bible teaches that both faith and repentance are gifts of God. This does not mean that we don't have faith, nor does it mean we don't actually repent. It simply means that the ability to do these things (faith to God, not just faith in general and repentance from sin, not just repenting in general) are gifts. Our eyes have been opened, our hearts have been changed.

Agreed.

good! This is where some hyper Calvinists get so wrong. They get so caught up with things like election that they forget the means by which God saves people.

 

[preacher4truth]

A statement from the Book of Acts, with "repentance" undefined.

You need a definition in there? Inexcusable and illogical attempt to prove something here.

Look up the word "repentance" in the Greek, yes? Just as I assume you do for other definitions? Voila, there's the definition. Just as easy as looking up any other definition.

Thus your argument is flawed.

 

[DHK]

You need a definition in there? Inexcusable and illogical attempt to prove something here.

Look up the word "repentance" in the Greek, yes? Just as I assume you do for other definitions? Voila, there's the definition. Just as easy as looking up any other definition.

Thus your argument is flawed.

Everything has context, which I didn't take the time to explain. Thus my abbreviated answer.

Your conclusion would be akin to this.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
--The verse is not saying what it seems.
But you say.
"Aha! Baptismal regeneration. There is the definition. Just as easy as looking up any other definition."
You ignore too many details.

 

[JesusFan]

Everything has context, which I didn't take the time to explain. Thus my abbreviated answer.

Your conclusion would be akin to this.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
--The verse is not saying what it seems.
But you say.
"Aha! Baptismal regeneration. There is the definition. Just as easy as looking up any other definition."
You ignore too many details.

What about Ephesians 2:8-9?
that teaches that all parts of the spiritual package is from God?

Including even our faith to believe?

 

[preacher4truth]

Everything has context, which I didn't take the time to explain. Thus my abbreviated answer.

Your conclusion would be akin to this.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
--The verse is not saying what it seems.
But you say.
"Aha! Baptismal regeneration. There is the definition. Just as easy as looking up any other definition."
You ignore too many details.

:laugh:

No, there is no such thing as Baptismal regeneration, you need to know that.

Faith regeration? Is that what it is?

You can't help but twist things can you?

All you need to do is look in your "books" and realize what repent means.

It's even necessary in the epistles.

Gospels and Acts? How to be saved, and repentance necessary.

General Letters/Epistles? How to live after salvation and the necessary repentance.

That should serve as a good outline for you to study and perhaps preach also.

 

[DHK]

:laugh:

No, there is no such thing as Baptismal regeneration, you need to know that.

Faith regeration? Is that what it is?

You can't help but twist things can you?

All you need to do is look in your "books" and realize what repent means.

It's even necessary in the epistles.

Gospels and Acts? How to be saved, and repentance necessary.

General Letters/Epistles? How to live after salvation and the necessary repentance.

That should serve as a good outline for you to study and perhaps preach also.

Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise. (Luke 10:37)
Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. (John 13:27)

 

[preacher4truth]

Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise. (Luke 10:37)
Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. (John 13:27)

These are the things you resort to here.

 

[DHK]

These are the things you resort to here.

Yes. It is good advice.
In common language it is: Practice what you preach, and start doing it right away.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,

Salvation is the gift of God. But commands men everywhere to repent, doesn't he? He doesn't do the repenting for you--your present position. "God grants me repentance--he gives it to me, therefore I don't have to repent." (Icon's position).

That is not my position.....why do you say that....

All men are responsible to repent. Men repent...God does not need to repent,
God does not repent for us......that is my position..God enables the elect to repent,,,,then they[the elect repent and believe]. simple dhk isnt it?

jbh 28 picked up on the fact that you totally misrepresented my position;

He doesn't do the repenting for you

Quote:
- no, I repent

Then repentance isn't a gift.

--your present position. "God grants me repentance--he gives it to me, re I don't have to repent." (Icon's position). Are you sure that's Icon's position that hetherefo doesn't do any repenting, but that God repents?
His position is that "God grants repentance". I deduce the rest. If God simply grants it or gives it, then why should I have to repent. God has already done it for me. He has "given it to me"--granted me repentance. I am off the hook.

DHK...when you say this....I deduce the rest...

that is your error.....that is not my position...your deduction is way off.
DHK
in post 47 I requested that you do not do this: I said;

Where have I ever said that? could you post me saying that?
DHK.... if I said that and you corrected me ...I would say thank you DHK!

I did not say that however,that is your re-wording, or mis-understanding completely what i am saying. You did not ask me for clarification, instead you put words or ideas into my posts that i did not put, or imply.

IF you could give your ideas for you, I will give my own ideas for myself.:thumbsup:
Here In your POST you did it again here;

It is absurd to think that God repents on behalf of another. No, you did not directly say that, but that is the logical conclusion one comes to when one says that repentance is "a gift of God," that is "God granting repentance." If God simply granted it, then God gave them repentance or repented for them. Right? That is your position, because you don't want to dig deeper into what the phrase really means. Mark this: God doesn't grant repentance per se. He isn't going to do the repenting for you. That is what is absurd about your position.

DHK.....I do not think you are purposefully trying to disparage my statements,as you clearly explain{in The BOLDED section] to your credit, that it was not.....as you say......No, you did not directly say that, but that is the logical conclusion one comes to

DHK....slow down! You came to this conclusion, but it is not logical.

What I think is happening is you can see that your view is slipping away,so to speak...so you have to re-direct what I said, to give you a chance to make your case...because you can not find a biblical solution.

I would ask that you do not do this.Take time and respond how you want to biblically....but leave my words as they are..If I am not clear...ask me again.

Never did he say that repentance was part of the gospel. That was my challenge to you. Can you accept it? Apparently not. You have to question motive instead

When you asked this question the first time, I did respond,maybe you missed it...here it is againl

8For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

9For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Paul descibes their repentance in vs9....turning from sin, turning to God...

you recently denied this, in another post.....DHK..I am not here to harass you, so I did not keep commenting on it, but if you do not mind me saying...you need to re-evaluate your ideas on this.

In fact not only did you question motive you falsely alleged something I never said--that repentance was a Jewish doctrine. Where do you get that from?

I got it from one of your posts...would you like me to post it for you?

1. You were not part of "them".
2. You were not at the house of Cornelius.
3. You were not one of those hearing the message of Peter.
4. In fact you were not even alive during the first century.
5. And like them, you did not speak in tongues at the time of your salvation.

For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. (Acts 10:46)
--In Acts 11:18 the church gathered at Jerusalem spoke, not to you, but about those Gentiles who came to know Christ at the house of Cornelius. You were not one of them. You are not even in the picture. The verse doesn't apply to you. Do you know what historical context means?

Do you really want me to respond to this? These historic NT portions have nothing to say to us? This is a thread all by itself.

 

[Aaron]

Though perhaps an exercise in futility, we're still waiting for a straight answer from Scandal. Do men have faith by nature, or is it endowed by the Spirit of God?

We all know that all things are from God. All things were created by Christ and for Him. Even the wicked for the day of judgment, but that does not mean that all things are hallowed, natural or within the power of men.

 

[DHK]

DHK,


That is not my position.....why do you say that....

All men are responsible to repent. Men repent...God does not need to repent,
God does not repent for us......that is my position..God enables the elect to repent,,,,then they[the elect repent and believe]. simple dhk isnt it?

jbh 28 picked up on the fact that you totally misrepresented my position;

He doesn't do the repenting for you

Quote:
- no, I repent

Then repentance isn't a gift.

Your right in the fact that jbh 28 pointed out that I draw my own conclusions from what you say and then that seems to be a misrepresentation of your position. I only try to show you where your position, from my point of view, would logically lead. In other words, as the saying goes: "you can't have your cake and eat it too."

Either you repent, and repentance is not a gift.
Or: God gives you repentance and it is God that is repenting on your behalf. Those are the two choices that I see before you. John the Baptist ordered the Pharisees to repent. God gave them no such gift or ability. They were to come showing the fruit of their repentance. God wouldn't do it for them. It was something they had to do without any intervention from God whatsoever. They were the ones that had to repent. You say it is a gift. It is not a gift. It is a command that has to be obeyed, like any other command in Scripture.

DHK...when you say this....I deduce the rest...

that is your error.....that is not my position...your deduction is way off.
DHK
in post 47 I requested that you do not do this: I said;

Your right it was a deduction, a logical deduction. Like I said, it must be one way or the other. It can't be both. Either YOU repent, or God does it for you (i.e., it is a gift.) It can't be both. Since you said it is a gift I deduced from the latter position that you believed that God repents on your behalf.

IF you could give your ideas for you, I will give my own ideas for myself.:thumbsup:
Here In your POST you did it again here;

Right, I said basically the same thing again.

DHK.....I do not think you are purposefully trying to disparage my statements,as you clearly explain{in The BOLDED section] to your credit, that it was not.....as you say......No, you did not directly say that, but that is the logical conclusion one comes to

That is correct.

DHK....slow down! You came to this conclusion, but it is not logical.

I believe it is logical.

What I think is happening is you can see that your view is slipping away,so to speak...so you have to re-direct what I said, to give you a chance to make your case...because you can not find a biblical solution.

I believe my position is not a solution, but rather what is stated in the Bible as the Biblical position. The command is to repent; not that God gives you a gift of repentance so you can do it. That would be counter productive.

I would ask that you do not do this.Take time and respond how you want to biblically....but leave my words as they are..If I am not clear...ask me again.

I can ask in the same words I just did. You said "repentance is a gift from God." That is correct, right? If repentance is a gift of God then the command to repent is counter productive is it not? Why would God give a gift of repentance if he has already given a command to repent? These two statements are in contradiction one to another.

When you asked this question the first time, I did respond,maybe you missed it...here it is againl

Paul descibes their repentance in vs9....turning from sin, turning to God...

9For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

No argument here. It is a change of mind toward God. They turned from their former life of rebelling against God to a life of serving God. That is repentance. Notice it is not a turning from sin, per se. It is turning from a lifestyle of rebelling against God. There is a different. They didn't repent "of their sins." There is a big difference.

you recently denied this, in another post.....DHK..I am not here to harass you, so I did not keep commenting on it, but if you do not mind me saying...you need to re-evaluate your ideas on this.

I denied that a person must repent of all their sins. I still hold to that. It is an unbiblical doctrine, and not taught here or anywhere else in the NT.

I got it from one of your posts...would you like me to post it for you?

That repentance is a Jewish doctrine? Yes you better quote me on that!! I said no such thing. You are taking something I said out of context.

Do you really want me to respond to this? These historic NT portions have nothing to say to us? This is a thread all by itself.

There are some things, like Pentecost, that happen only one time in history. This also was one event that happened only one time in history. Yes, you can respond to it.

 

[DHK]

Though perhaps an exercise in futility, we're still waiting for a straight answer from Scandal. Do men have faith by nature, or is it endowed by the Spirit of God?

We all know that all things are from God. All things were created by Christ and for Him. Even the wicked for the day of judgment, but that does not mean that all things are hallowed, natural or within the power of men.

Every man has faith by nature. Almost from birth (or shortly thereafter) my children knew instinctively who their parents were. They would not go to strangers. They knew who their shepherd was; who their voice was, and would not follow another. They had faith in them that they would provide for them, nourish them, protect them, etc. To be held by a stranger was uncomfortable, and they didn't feel at ease. They placed their faith in their parents.

Jesus said that unless your faith is like a child's faith you cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jesus likened the faith of an adult to the faith of a child. It is obvious from the words of Jesus that even a child has faith. It is a natural ability. And unless we have that child-like simple confidence in the Lord we cannot be saved. It is complete and full confidence in Christ, and Christ alone that he has the ability to save, and He alone will save. That is the faith of a child. Jesus confirmed that little children have faith.

 

[Skandelon]

One is of the Spirit, and the other is of the flesh.

Is there is a saving faith that is "of the flesh?" NO. Of the spirit means in response to or as a result of the work of the Spirit. The gospel IS a work of the Spirit. Faith comes by hearing. You overcomplicate things.

One is in the power of man, the other is not.

What's the difference in your system? Isn't everything empowered by him ultimately?

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello DHK,
Thank you for taking time to respond. I am glad that ovet time I see where I agree with some of your posts,ie, those about the scripture as Gods word, the trinity, and some other elements of the Faith.
At this point in time are differences here look as if they will remain just that.

In the other post you said I presented a "red herring" when I mentioned Jesus healing the man with the withered hand. You missed the point of my illustration. Let me clarify it. You just said in this last post;

Either you repent, and repentance is not a gift.

Or: God gives you repentance and it is God that is repenting on your behalf. Those are the two choices that I see before you.

Here is the third choice that you do not see as some of us see it;
God grants, [graces,] [gives,] the gifts of saving repentance,saving faith, and ability to believe unto salvation.....by giving us spiritual life from the dead.

Then and only then when bondage to sin and satan has been broken, are we restored to a right mind,and made willing by grace, to repent and believe the gospel savingly, through faith
Notice.....it is us who repent,and believe through faith...and that not of ourselves ..it is the gift of God. God does not repent,and believe for us...He enables us to do it....but we give all glory to God..because all of it comes from HIM.......you had objected here;

John the Baptist ordered the Pharisees to repent. God gave them no such gift or ability. They were to come showing the fruit of their repentance. God wouldn't do it for them. It was something they had to do without any intervention from God whatsoever. They were the ones that had to repent. You say it is a gift. It is not a gift. It is a command that has to be obeyed, like any other command in Scripture

DHK.....they were commanded to repent,and as we know....they did not do it they were unable and unwilling to do what they were commanded to
do..... This shows what I am saying. Sinners unaided by God do not seek Him in the correct way, they are unwilling and unable.
When I brought up the miracle of healing, Jesus healed for several reasons, but one reason is to demonstrate His grace...these commands were given to people in the gospels;
1}stretch forth thy hand

2]take up thy pallet and walk

3] Lazarus come forth

In each case the person was commanded to do something that left to themselves the were unable to do. God gave the grace and ability...
then and only then the person could obey,once God enabled them[/B]

I can ask in the same words I just did. You said "repentance is a gift from God." That is correct, right? If repentance is a gift of God then the command to repent is counter productive is it not? Why would God give a gift of repentance if he has already given a command to repent? These two statements are in contradiction one to another.

All men are commanded to repent and believe today! They do not want too.
God makes some of these unwilling people willing to.
He does not have to save anyone, but in mercy He saves many.
God has already given the command 2000yrs ago...but the Holy Spirit grants it to whom God wills. He never purposed for all men everywhere to be saved

 

[JesusFan]

Yes. It is good advice.
In common language it is: Practice what you preach, and start doing it right away.

can we stick PLEASE to discussing the OP?

drop your personal attacks and TRY to answer the cals here if you can?

lets ALL just agree to be more Christ like, Eh?

 

[DHK]

can we stick PLEASE to discussing the OP?

drop your personal attacks and TRY to answer the cals here if you can?

lets ALL just agree to be more Christ like, Eh?

I am all for that.
Again, it is good for you to take.
Check this post.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1713998&postcount=65

This is where you started your attack against me instead of politely replying to my post. You replied with personal insults, and have been doing ever since. Now you tell me to drop the personal insults??

As I have been telling you all along. Practice what you preach.

 

[JesusFan]

I am all for that.
Again, it is good for you to take.
Check this post.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1713998&postcount=65

This is where you started your attack against me instead of politely replying to my post. You replied with personal insults, and have been doing ever since. Now you tell me to drop the personal insults??

As I have been telling you all along. Practice what you preach.

Checked the link, i am NOT him, i am jesusfan!

And good to see that we both agree biblical repentance IF you hold that in strictest sense NOT us repenting and forsaking all of our personal sins, but that we agree with God that NONE of our 'rightousness" will save us, no religion etc

But that ALL one casn do is turn to jesus and get saved by what He did do on our behalf...

basically, requesting us to turn from self salvation efforts to God salvation in jesus!

 

[Skandelon]

God is giving me the ability to repent. He's changing me so that I can see my sin differently and therefore repent. Hence, repentance is a gift. That's at least how I see it.

This is how I see it too! :thumbsup:

But, jbh, you seem like a reasonable person. Please explain to me why that "ability" MUST irresistibly MAKE someone willing to repent for God too still get the credit for granting it? Why must a gift be effectual for the giver to receive all the glory for giving it? I'd think He'd get MORE glory for making it available to even those who refuse it because then they truly have no excuse, He is shown to be loving to even his enemies, He is not blamed for not providing all they needed, and thus all the blame is not them for their rejection. Why is your view presumed to make God appear more glorious when clearly most people would find your view to make God appear less fair and less loving and less glorious? Why not just say that God has provided all that was needed, but some rejected his loving gift, as the scriptures indicate, and leave it at that?

 

[JesusFan]

This is how I see it too! :thumbsup:

But, jbh, you seem like a reasonable person. Please explain to me why that "ability" MUST irresistibly MAKE someone willing to repent for God too still get the credit for granting it? Why must a gift be effectual for the giver to receive all the glory for giving it? I'd think He'd get MORE glory for making it available to even those who refuse it because then they truly have no excuse, He is shown to be loving to even his enemies, He is not blamed for not providing all they needed, and thus all the blame is not them for their rejection. Why is your view presumed to make God appear more glorious when clearly most people would find your view to make God appear less fair and less loving and less glorious? Why not just say that God has provided all that was needed, but some rejected his loving gift, as the scriptures indicate, and leave it at that?

maybe they think that way because they fail to see just how sinful before God we ALL are, and that God plan is perfect, as He does not make any mistakes in His plan of salvation?

as per Apostle paul, who are we to argue with God being the Potter and we being just clay?

 

[Skandelon]

Though perhaps an exercise in futility, we're still waiting for a straight answer from Scandal. Do men have faith by nature, or is it endowed by the Spirit of God?

Faith comes by hearing the word of God, but not effectually so. Man may hear and rebel against His truth thus making their hearts GROW or BECOME hardened/calloused to it. They aren't born hardened (unable to see, hear, understand and repent), but they will certainly become so if they continue in their rebellion as did many in Israel.

Let Israel be a warning to you Gentiles, do not let your hearts grow hardened. They didn't enter into the Promise Land because of unbelief, so don't make the same mistake they did. (ref. Heb. 3)