One is of the Spirit, and the other is of the flesh. One is in the power of man, the other is not. It's very simple, and the dichotomy is absolute.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
What is meant by Cals when they ask: do you believe "by our own ability?"
- Thread starter Skandelon
- Start date
- Status
quantumfaith
Active Member
Kudos, I am reminded of Occams Razor.
:thumbsup:Regarding faith; excellent articulation.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Excellent rebuttal of an unfortunate coupling of two different things, and of an huge misunderstanding!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
ok!
Do you also adhere and afiirm with the Bible that
unless the Lord enables us to excercise saving faith in Jesus, call it either Common or irrestible grace, that the Gospel itself is able to save us AFTER that further work of God?
Thanks
I know what the verse means. I don't want to play my commentaries are better than your commentaries game, for I also can produce quite a few more. The fact is that this is the first time that the gospel went out to the Gentiles. The conclusion was made: Then God also has "granted repentance" or granted the willingness to repent that they may have salvation," to the Gentiles. It was now the time that salvation was going to the Gentiles. Take the verse in the historic context. Salvation was now being offered to the Gentiles, and not just salvation, but the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The evidence of all of this is right here in this passage. Your view contradicts the rest of Scripture.
It is presumptuous and arrogant for you to say that which is contrary to Scripture. Think about it for a minute. What did John want of the Pharisees before he would baptize them. Did he command them to repent? Did he not demand to see the fruit of that repentance? Of course! Repentance always precedes salvation, and they had to do it. God did not repent on behalf of the Pharisees.
Your view is that God is going to repent on behalf of the unbeliever.
God is going to give him faith.
So this wretched sinner worthy of condemnation doesn't do a thing.
God repents for him; God believes for him, and God gives him salvation.
He might as well be a pygmy in Africa having never heard the gospel because it is God's repentance, God's faith, and God's salvation. The pygmy is totally passive. He doesn't do a thing. This is an absurd position.
DHK,
You have not shown that I have said anything contrary to scripture.I posted two verses of scripture. Are you saying the scriptures contradict themselves?
God granted repentance . Salvation is the gift of God.
DHK...I could easily make the case that it is you who have abberant views of scripture.
A few weeks ago it was you who were saying repentance is not even necessary...which is a falsehood absolutley. there will be no unrepentant sinners in heaven.
Your errors on the so called"carnal christian' and "backslider christian" are also absolutely false.
I would be very slow to throw stones my way when you have not come to grips with many of these other areas. You were offered scriptural correction which you declined to consider.....No commentator that anyone knows about says anything like you claim.
There have been some other dispensational errors in times past where some dispys say that repentance was a .....jewish doctrine.....is that what you were trying to get at when you were trying to get us not to use the gospels or Acts to see the true teaching of repentance?
We repent as God enables us, that is the whole point ...God granted repentance.
Jesus commanded the man with the withered hand to ...stretch forth His hand...he could not unless God enabled him to...but God did enable him..he stretched forth his hand.
Sorry DHK....the only arrogant thing I see is you going against what is taught in scripture...then projecting it on me...when I offer you verses, sermons and links that will help you correct some positions that you hold in error.
It was and still is a bad idea not to consider the helps and sermons offered.
DHK.... if I said that and you corrected me ...I would say thank you DHK!
I did not say that however,that is your re-wording, or mis-understanding completely what i am saying. You did not ask me for clarification, instead you put words or ideas into my posts that i did not put, or imply.
Could you even show what I posted that gives you this wrong idea?
Your understanding is the absurdity.....What did I say that gives you this idea, whatsoever? DHK....buy a large cup of coffee on me , re-read the posts and get back to me. i think you are mis-reading the posts big time.
:laugh::laugh::laugh:
You have not shown that I have said anything contrary to scripture.I posted two verses of scripture. Are you saying the scriptures contradict themselves?
God granted repentance . Salvation is the gift of God.
DHK...I could easily make the case that it is you who have abberant views of scripture.
A few weeks ago it was you who were saying repentance is not even necessary...which is a falsehood absolutley. there will be no unrepentant sinners in heaven.
Your errors on the so called"carnal christian' and "backslider christian" are also absolutely false.
I would be very slow to throw stones my way when you have not come to grips with many of these other areas. You were offered scriptural correction which you declined to consider.....No commentator that anyone knows about says anything like you claim.
There have been some other dispensational errors in times past where some dispys say that repentance was a .....jewish doctrine.....is that what you were trying to get at when you were trying to get us not to use the gospels or Acts to see the true teaching of repentance?
We repent as God enables us, that is the whole point ...God granted repentance.
Jesus commanded the man with the withered hand to ...stretch forth His hand...he could not unless God enabled him to...but God did enable him..he stretched forth his hand.
Sorry DHK....the only arrogant thing I see is you going against what is taught in scripture...then projecting it on me...when I offer you verses, sermons and links that will help you correct some positions that you hold in error.
It was and still is a bad idea not to consider the helps and sermons offered.
Where have I ever said that? could you post me saying that?
DHK.... if I said that and you corrected me ...I would say thank you DHK!
I did not say that however,that is your re-wording, or mis-understanding completely what i am saying. You did not ask me for clarification, instead you put words or ideas into my posts that i did not put, or imply.
Could you even show what I posted that gives you this wrong idea?
Your understanding is the absurdity.....What did I say that gives you this idea, whatsoever? DHK....buy a large cup of coffee on me , re-read the posts and get back to me. i think you are mis-reading the posts big time.
:laugh::laugh::laugh:
humblethinker
Active Member
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Occams Razor recommends that when faced with competing hypothesis that are equal in other respects, selecting the one that makes the fewest new assumptions.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Another "translation" of the razor is this:
All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the correct solution.
All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the correct solution.
or it could be..
When one eliminates the obvious, whatever is left, no matter how improbably, has to be the solution!
preacher4truth
Active Member
And God doesn't operate within the realm of mans wisdom, but outside, and well above it. 1 Corinthians 1:19-22.
Occams razor is thus dull. :wavey:
So are the intellects of any of those who trust in their own reason above Gods truth, or who think that He must fit into their own finite reason; "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." Proverbs 3:5
:thumbsup:
quantumfaith
Active Member
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
quantumfaith
Active Member
preacher4truth
Active Member
IF man could get it, why would God than inspire and reveal the truths of Himself and Grace to us in the Bible?
IF it takes that 'special revelation" from/of God to be saved, how can sinnerscome to Him apart from it?
if they cannot by themselves, isn't that "proof" of DoG?
No, your KJV understanding of them is contrary to Scripture.
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. (Acts 11:18)
-- 18. They held their peace. Gave up the controversy. They were convinced by the account, and assured that "God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life;" i. e., had removed the barriers in the way of the Gentiles repenting and finding life through Christ.
--This is what B.J. Johnson says. The meaning is that God removed the barriers in way of the Gentiles repenting and finding life through Christ.
It is absurd to think that God repents on behalf of another. No, you did not directly say that, but that is the logical conclusion one comes to when one says that repentance is "a gift of God," that is "God granting repentance." If God simply granted it, then God gave them repentance or repented for them. Right? That is your position, because you don't want to dig deeper into what the phrase really means. Mark this: God doesn't grant repentance per se. He isn't going to do the repenting for you. That is what is absurd about your position.
Salvation is the gift of God. But commands men everywhere to repent, doesn't he? He doesn't do the repenting for you--your present position. "God grants me repentance--he gives it to me, therefore I don't have to repent." (Icon's position).
Sure you could. You are a Calvinist and I am not. You are covenant and I am dispensational. But when you get to heaven you will have to repent (have a change of mind).
You didn't understand what I was saying. Look in the epistles of Paul. Show me any emphasis of Paul on repentance in the gospel. There is none. Why? Because the emphasis on "believe" or "faith." Repentance is the flip side of faith. I didn't say it wasn't necessary; but rather misunderstood. To preach "repent of all your sins" is a doctrine not found in the NT. Repentance is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God.
What do I do when I put my faith in Christ and his atoning work? I change my mind toward who Christ is (repentance). I once was a rebel, and now Christ is my Lord to whom I submit. That is what happens at salvation. Repentance happens at the same time I put my faith in Christ as my Lord. It can't be any other way.
I believe the Bible; don't deny it.
3 times in 1Cor.3:1-5, Paul calls the Corinthian believers "carnal." You have the audacity to call Paul wrong and think you know more than the apostle Paul on this subject? I will stick with what the Bible says here and not your opinion.
No commentator I know would deny that there were carnal Christians in Corinth. I don't know what you are reading. Did you cut that section out of your Bible?
Again, a misunderstanding on your part. I challenged you to try and show me where Paul, in his epistles, ever used repentance as a part of the gospel. He wrote an entire epistle on salvation (Romans). Never did he say that repentance was part of the gospel. That was my challenge to you. Can you accept it? Apparently not. You have to question motive instead. In fact not only did you question motive you falsely alleged something I never said--that repentance was a Jewish doctrine. Where do you get that from?
My child repents when I give him a spanking. God didn't enable him to do that. God doesn't simply give you repentance. You refuse to study that verse and find out what it means in its historical context. Thus you pull this verse out of its context and apply it where it shouldn't be applied. Let me put it this way:
God granted THEM repentance.
1. You were not part of "them".
2. You were not at the house of Cornelius.
3. You were not one of those hearing the message of Peter.
4. In fact you were not even alive during the first century.
5. And like them, you did not speak in tongues at the time of your salvation.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. (Acts 10:46)
--In Acts 11:18 the church gathered at Jerusalem spoke, not to you, but about those Gentiles who came to know Christ at the house of Cornelius. You were not one of them. You are not even in the picture. The verse doesn't apply to you. Do you know what historical context means?
A red herring. It has nothing to do with his salvation, but rather a healing.
God can heal both saved and unsaved today. But it is God that does the healing. Sometimes the Lord used a physician called Luke. Sometimes the Lord uses doctors today. But ultimately it is God that heals by whatever method he chooses.
It is not me that is in error. I offer you Scripture right back and you ignore it.
What other conclusion could Calvinism offer.
God grants the little pygmy repentance. He gives it to him freely.
Faith is the gift of God. God grants the unsaved pygmy faith. It is a gift.
The little African pygmy now has repentance and faith.
God has given both repentance and faith to the African pygmy.
Therefore God has given him salvation as well.
Salvation is a gift of God of which faith and repentance are necessary gifts that one must first obtain.
Why the Great Commission? Why evangelize?
Repentance is a gift. Faith is a gift. Salvation is a gift. There is nothing left to do except to watch God evangelize the world with his gifts of repentance, faith and salvation. Right?
Salvation is the gift of God. agree
But commands men everywhere to repent, doesn't he? yes
He doesn't do the repenting for you - no, I repent
--your present position. "God grants me repentance--he gives it to me, therefore I don't have to repent." (Icon's position). Are you sure that's Icon's position that he doesn't do any repenting, but that God repents?
At first I thought you were saying at first...
You ask, "why evangelize"
Because that's how the gospel is shared to the world. This is God's chosen method.
Repentance is a gift. Faith is a gift. Salvation is a gift. There is nothing left to do except to watch God evangelize the world with his gifts of repentance, faith and salvation. Right?
Our job is to share the gospel with the world and let God do the rest. God saves, not us. What is left out is the means by which God saves people. It's through the sharing of the gospel.
But commands men everywhere to repent, doesn't he? yes
He doesn't do the repenting for you - no, I repent
--your present position. "God grants me repentance--he gives it to me, therefore I don't have to repent." (Icon's position). Are you sure that's Icon's position that he doesn't do any repenting, but that God repents?
dhk said:
At first I thought you were saying at first...
You ask, "why evangelize"
Because that's how the gospel is shared to the world. This is God's chosen method.
Repentance is a gift. Faith is a gift. Salvation is a gift. There is nothing left to do except to watch God evangelize the world with his gifts of repentance, faith and salvation. Right?
Our job is to share the gospel with the world and let God do the rest. God saves, not us. What is left out is the means by which God saves people. It's through the sharing of the gospel.
No, your KJV understanding of them is contrary to Scripture.
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. (Acts 11:18)
-- 18. They held their peace. Gave up the controversy. They were convinced by the account, and assured that "God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life;" i. e., had removed the barriers in the way of the Gentiles repenting and finding life through Christ.
--This is what B.J. Johnson says. The meaning is that God removed the barriers in way of the Gentiles repenting and finding life through Christ.
It is absurd to think that God repents on behalf of another. No, you did not directly say that, but that is the logical conclusion one comes to when one says that repentance is "a gift of God," that is "God granting repentance." If God simply granted it, then God gave them repentance or repented for them. Right? That is your position, because you don't want to dig deeper into what the phrase really means. Mark this: God doesn't grant repentance per se. He isn't going to do the repenting for you. That is what is absurd about your position.
Salvation is the gift of God. But commands men everywhere to repent, doesn't he? He doesn't do the repenting for you--your present position. "God grants me repentance--he gives it to me, therefore I don't have to repent." (Icon's position).
Sure you could. You are a Calvinist and I am not. You are covenant and I am dispensational. But when you get to heaven you will have to repent (have a change of mind).
You didn't understand what I was saying. Look in the epistles of Paul. Show me any emphasis of Paul on repentance in the gospel. There is none. Why? Because the emphasis on "believe" or "faith." Repentance is the flip side of faith. I didn't say it wasn't necessary; but rather misunderstood. To preach "repent of all your sins" is a doctrine not found in the NT. Repentance is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God.
What do I do when I put my faith in Christ and his atoning work? I change my mind toward who Christ is (repentance). I once was a rebel, and now Christ is my Lord to whom I submit. That is what happens at salvation. Repentance happens at the same time I put my faith in Christ as my Lord. It can't be any other way.
I believe the Bible; don't deny it.
3 times in 1Cor.3:1-5, Paul calls the Corinthian believers "carnal." You have the audacity to call Paul wrong and think you know more than the apostle Paul on this subject? I will stick with what the Bible says here and not your opinion.
No commentator I know would deny that there were carnal Christians in Corinth. I don't know what you are reading. Did you cut that section out of your Bible?
Again, a misunderstanding on your part. I challenged you to try and show me where Paul, in his epistles, ever used repentance as a part of the gospel. He wrote an entire epistle on salvation (Romans). Never did he say that repentance was part of the gospel. That was my challenge to you. Can you accept it? Apparently not. You have to question motive instead. In fact not only did you question motive you falsely alleged something I never said--that repentance was a Jewish doctrine. Where do you get that from?
My child repents when I give him a spanking. God didn't enable him to do that. God doesn't simply give you repentance. You refuse to study that verse and find out what it means in its historical context. Thus you pull this verse out of its context and apply it where it shouldn't be applied. Let me put it this way:
God granted THEM repentance.
1. You were not part of "them".
2. You were not at the house of Cornelius.
3. You were not one of those hearing the message of Peter.
4. In fact you were not even alive during the first century.
5. And like them, you did not speak in tongues at the time of your salvation.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. (Acts 10:46)
--In Acts 11:18 the church gathered at Jerusalem spoke, not to you, but about those Gentiles who came to know Christ at the house of Cornelius. You were not one of them. You are not even in the picture. The verse doesn't apply to you. Do you know what historical context means?
A red herring. It has nothing to do with his salvation, but rather a healing.
God can heal both saved and unsaved today. But it is God that does the healing. Sometimes the Lord used a physician called Luke. Sometimes the Lord uses doctors today. But ultimately it is God that heals by whatever method he chooses.
It is not me that is in error. I offer you Scripture right back and you ignore it.
What other conclusion could Calvinism offer.
God grants the little pygmy repentance. He gives it to him freely.
Faith is the gift of God. God grants the unsaved pygmy faith. It is a gift.
The little African pygmy now has repentance and faith.
God has given both repentance and faith to the African pygmy.
Therefore God has given him salvation as well.
Salvation is a gift of God of which faith and repentance are necessary gifts that one must first obtain.
Why the Great Commission? Why evangelize?
Repentance is a gift. Faith is a gift. Salvation is a gift. There is nothing left to do except to watch God evangelize the world with his gifts of repentance, faith and salvation. Right?
I hold to the DoG and am also a dispy and one who belives in continuation of the Gifts!
To your last point...
The Gospel message IS what God uses to wake up those whom He has elected to save in Jesus...
We proclaim the risen Christ, our part, God saves, His part!
Yes
A statement from the Book of Acts, with "repentance" undefined.
Then repentance isn't a gift.
Are you sure that's Icon's position that he doesn't do any repenting, but that God repents?
His position is that "God grants repentance". I deduce the rest. If God simply grants it or gives it, then why should I have to repent. God has already done it for me. He has "given it to me"--granted me repentance. I am off the hook.
God doesn't do things without reason. Calvinism takes away the reason.At first I thought you were saying at first...
You ask, "why evangelize"
Because that's how the gospel is shared to the world. This is God's chosen method.
In reality:
Repentance is not a gift; neither is faith.
Salvation is certainly the gift of God.
For by grace are ye saved through faith.
Agreed.
- Status