What is meant by Cals when they ask: do you believe "by our own ability?"

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Shut up?

That doesnt embarrass you?


No he is misrepresenting it in order to belittle it.

Not in the least. I dont run, hide or embarrass easily. You want to take a poke at me thats fine. I can cut it brother. Such is life.

 

[DHK]

But Im still confused.....did Christ actively save you by dieing on the cross ie your saved & that all that awaits you is a visit from the HS. After that you want to believe. Or does Christ dieing on the cross function as a token to salvation....now its up to man to save himself by claiming Christ....do you see what Im driving at?

See Calvinists believe Christs death automatically saves....then the process begins with regeneration etc. When your regenerated you cant help but want it (to believe, to have faith) so thats when you claim the blood of Christ. There is no sitten around making judgment calls. These are the subtle differences as I see them.

I quoted you a number of verses where it commands one to put their faith (not a work) in the atoning work of Christ to be saved. That is also the teaching of Eph.2:8,9. It is the basic teaching of salvation throughout the Bible.

Here is what is not basic: regeneration preceding salvation. That is not taught in the Bible at all. In fact I view it as mysticism. There is no faith required; no Word of God required. Somehow a person mysteriously, supernaturally, mystically is regenerated. There is no explanation given as to how this happens; it just does. It seems almost pagan in nature. You said:
"When you are regenerated you can't help but to believe."

But you can't explain regeneration. It is mystical existentialism.
It is not found in the Bible unless regeneration is salvation and happens at the same time as salvation; by faith, faith preceding both regeneration and salvation.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I quoted you a number of verses where it commands one to put their faith (not a work) in the atoning work of Christ to be saved. That is also the teaching of Eph.2:8,9. It is the basic teaching of salvation throughout the Bible.

Here is what is not basic: regeneration preceding salvation. That is not taught in the Bible at all. In fact I view it as mysticism. There is no faith required; no Word of God required. Somehow a person mysteriously, supernaturally, mystically is regenerated. There is no explanation given as to how this happens; it just does. It seems almost pagan in nature. You said:
"When you are regenerated you can't help but to believe."

But you can't explain regeneration. It is mystical existentialism.
It is not found in the Bible unless regeneration is salvation and happens at the same time as salvation; by faith, faith preceding both regeneration and salvation.

Oh then John 6;44 & romans 3:10-12 have no place in this discussion?

 

[DHK]

Oh then John 6;44 & romans 3:10-12 have no place in this discussion?

How does the Father draw a person?
--Not by "mystical, unknown. indescribable ways.

The fact that a person is a sinner doesn't alter my position any. No it doesn't have much place in this discussion as we all believe that Christ came to save sinners.

 

[Skandelon]

Quantum and DHK are consistent and logical and concise. They will say, yes, faith is a natural aptitude.

Scandal WANTS to say the same thing, but he hasn't yet cast off all the trappings of Calvinism. He knows that men can only respond by the power of the Spirit.

Only those who would deny that the Gospel message IS a powerful working of the Holy Spirit would deny the need of it in order to believe. How can they believe in whom they have not heard?

He therefore has to lay a new foundation that says that since God is creator of both heaven and earth, there is no real difference between them. Since God gave man the power to do whatever it is he does, whether he works equations or writes music, then man is doing those things in no less the power of God than he does to believe unto salvation.

What ability do you have that you take credit for Aaron? Are you musical, artistic, athletic, or anything that others might consider "gifted?" Do you give God glory for such gifts or do you say of those things, "I get the glory and the credit?"

What good do you have that was not given to you?

And how many do you know who have God given abilities that squander them, or take them for granted, or glory in them without giving praise to the creator?

You have yet to draw any real distinction between "natural" good (good that comes from man) and "divine" good (good that comes from God). I think all "good" is divine, because that is what scripture says. Some may rebel and turn that which is given for good into evil, or not use their God given ability, but that doesn't lesson the credit due to God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

How does the Father draw a person?
--Not by "mystical, unknown. indescribable ways.

The fact that a person is a sinner doesn't alter my position any. No it doesn't have much place in this discussion as we all believe that Christ came to save sinners.

So in other words your calling DoG Paganistic & mystical?

 

[DHK]

So in other words your calling DoG Paganistic & mystical?

No, Just the one belief that regeneration comes before salvation. In fact some here say that Cornelius was regenerated before Peter even arrived. That being the case he was regenerated at least three days before he was saved. What if he died before Peter got there. He would have been regenerated but not saved? How is that even possible or make sense? It is just mysticism. He is mystically regenerated. No one knows how. And then after that when he hears the Word of God he is able to put his faith in Christ and be saved. That make no sense.

 

[TCGreek]

No, Just the one belief that regeneration comes before salvation. In fact some here say that Cornelius was regenerated before Peter even arrived. That being the case he was regenerated at least three days before he was saved. What if he died before Peter got there. He would have been regenerated but not saved? How is that even possible or make sense? It is just mysticism. He is mystically regenerated. No one knows how. And then after that when he hears the Word of God he is able to put his faith in Christ and be saved. That make no sense.

Yep, makes no sense.

 

[glfredrick]

How does the Father draw a person?
--Not by "mystical, unknown. indescribable ways.

The fact that a person is a sinner doesn't alter my position any. No it doesn't have much place in this discussion as we all believe that Christ came to save sinners.

The term you are searching for is "supernatural."

Yes, that is something that God alone can do. You can read about it in the Scriptures. :laugh:

Originally Posted by DHK
I quoted you a number of verses where it commands one to put their faith (not a work) in the atoning work of Christ to be saved. That is also the teaching of Eph.2:8,9. It is the basic teaching of salvation throughout the Bible.

Here is what is not basic: regeneration preceding salvation. That is not taught in the Bible at all. In fact I view it as mysticism. There is no faith required; no Word of God required. Somehow a person mysteriously, supernaturally, mystically is regenerated. There is no explanation given as to how this happens; it just does. It seems almost pagan in nature. You said:
"When you are regenerated you can't help but to believe."

But you can't explain regeneration. It is mystical existentialism.
It is not found in the Bible unless regeneration is salvation and happens at the same time as salvation; by faith, faith preceding both regeneration and salvation.

About the quote above, you are quite incorrect for more than one reason.

First, "salvation" is not a singular event. It is a term used to describe a number of events, election, effectual call, regeneration, justification, faith/repentance, adoption, sanctification, perseverance, and ultimately glorification.

Second, using a very human time frame to describe the "logical" and "legal" actions of God in salvation is very simplistic -- and wrong. What seems to us to require this step or that step in some order can be, by God, instantaneous at the "salvation" of an individual. I suggest doing some reading on the ordo salutas before you make further grave errors in your theological thinking. And, note that I am not talking about a "particular" theological position here, such as Calvinism or Arminianism. Just pure theological homework that underlies the rest of one's thinking concerning a position.

Third, and this is most basic and at the core of your argument, are you actually saying that "regeneration" is not found in the Scriptures? I believe that was merely a poorly worded sentence on your part, so I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here, but if indeed you feel that regeneration is "mystical existentialism" then we are dealing with a non-Christian on the board, and that should require some action from board moderators. Regeneration is a core principle of our salvation, and though some of us may disagree as to when it occurs in the "logical order" if salvation, all Christians must agree that it is, lest we be something other than Christian.

 

[DHK]

The term you are searching for is "supernatural."

Yes, that is something that God alone can do. You can read about it in the Scriptures.

I am sure God does it, as the Scriptures say; but not in the mystical mysterious, undefinable way that the Calvinists would have us to believe.

About the quote above, you are quite incorrect for more than one reason.

First, "salvation" is not a singular event. It is a term used to describe a number of events, election, effectual call, regeneration, justification, faith/repentance, adoption, sanctification, perseverance, and ultimately glorification.

Many things take place at one event. It isn't a process. It is an event. There were many things that took place at my marriage. It was an event not a process. I am not still being married. Try and explain that to my wife!!

Second, using a very human time frame to describe the "logical" and "legal" actions of God in salvation is very simplistic -- and wrong.

Tell that to God. He is the one that uses very simple terms and a time frame to describe logical and legal actions concerning salvation, and makes salvation a very simple message. Your argument there is with God not with me. It is his message not mine.

What seems to us to require this step or that step in some order can be, by God, instantaneous at the "salvation" of an individual. I suggest doing some reading on the ordo salutas

I salute you in order my sir!! :wavey:

before you make further grave errors in your theological thinking. And, note that I am not talking about a "particular" theological position here, such as Calvinism or Arminianism. Just pure theological homework that underlies the rest of one's thinking concerning a position.

I believe I have my theology in order. And I humbly salute myself for doing so.

Third, and this is most basic and at the core of your argument, are you actually saying that "regeneration" is not found in the Scriptures?

No, of course not. The actual word is found in Titus 3:5. The concept is found in the new birth.

I believe that was merely a poorly worded sentence on your part, so I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here, but if indeed you feel that regeneration is "mystical existentialism" then we are dealing with a non-Christian on the board, and that should require some action from board moderators.

Your accusation here is absurd. The Calvinistic approach is absurd. Like I said, and gave an example in the person of Cornelius: How can a man be regenerated three days before being saved? Impossible! What if he were to die after regeneration but before salvation? It could have happened in that scenario. But you have no answer for that.

Regeneration is a core principle of our salvation, and though some of us may disagree as to when it occurs in the "logical order" if salvation, all Christians must agree that it is, lest we be something other than Christian.

True enough. But if it doesn't occur at the time of salvation then it can't be explained any other way but by some mystical existential experience.

 

[Skandelon]

I am sure God does it, as the Scriptures say; but not in the mystical mysterious, undefinable way that the Calvinists would have us to believe.

That is right. God never works that way to change the will of man. Even in those times we do see God actively intervene to ensure His purposes are carried out, He does so through relatively normative means. For example, he could have just supernaturally made Jonah want to go to Nineveh by giving him an obedient heart, but God doesn't work like that. He used circumstances such as a storm and a big fish to humble Jonah and bring him into submission...and He did this for his appointed messenger. How does that in anyway prove that God mystically and mysteriously gives some of his audience members new hearts so they will believe Jonah's message?

 

[glfredrick]

I am sure God does it, as the Scriptures say; but not in the mystical mysterious, undefinable way that the Calvinists would have us to believe.

As I recall, I have NEVER ONCE heard any Calvinist on this board use that language. You, however, have. That says something. What, I'm unsure of, but something, especially as concerns both your grasp of Calvinism and your grasp of theology in general.

You do seem to want God's actions to be somehow tied to human actions in a way that is perfectly understandable (to you) and also in a way that is perfectly controllable to the human that desires those actions. I can't find that in my Bible -- oh wait, yes I can -- it is in the places where human beings rebel against God in sin...

Many things take place at one event. It isn't a process. It is an event. There were many things that took place at my marriage. It was an event not a process. I am not still being married. Try and explain that to my wife!!

DHK, I responded to your post using standard theological language and standard theological concepts. You return with things far removed from theology, which indicates to me your lack of theological education. I am not saying that to put you down, we are not all at the same place regarding the theological education that we have been blessed to receive, and that has no bearing on our salvation, etc., but it DOES have bearing on THEOLOGICAL ARGUMENTS such as this. Hence, my request that you do some homework before you continue to place foot solidly in mouth over things that you really do not understand very well at all.

Tell that to God. He is the one that uses very simple terms and a time frame to describe logical and legal actions concerning salvation, and makes salvation a very simple message. Your argument there is with God not with me. It is his message not mine.

I have no argument with God whatsoever. Nor am I trying to tell God how to do His business, including when or how He should regenerate an individual that He has elected and effectually called. You, on the other hand, do seem to have some issues that force you to set aside or otherwise re-define some scriptures in order to reconcile your arguments.

I salute you in order my sir!! :wavey:
I believe I have my theology in order. And I humbly salute myself for doing so.

That is abundantly clear from your most elucidated response.

No, of course not. The actual word is found in Titus 3:5. The concept is found in the new birth.

Whew... At least that part is back off the table. Not sure why you are taking brothers to task over it, however. I'll retain some suspicions about your competency to discuss this issue. You have yet to prove to me that you are actually biblical or orthodox on that point.

Your accusation here is absurd. The Calvinistic approach is absurd. Like I said, and gave an example in the person of Cornelius: How can a man be regenerated three days before being saved? Impossible! What if he were to die after regeneration but before salvation? It could have happened in that scenario. But you have no answer for that.
True enough. But if it doesn't occur at the time of salvation then it can't be explained any other way but by some mystical existential experience.

Absurd is a rather strong word... Your lack of theological preparation and general (admitted!) lack of comprehension does not make an entire doctrine that has been the mainstream of Christianity for 2000 years "absurd." There are a lot of answers that are given around here everyday. The bigger problem seems to stem from the fact that even after repeated rejoinders to leave behind strawman and stereotypical arguments that are neither true nor accurate the same false and inflammatory remarks continue.

And worse, from board moderators...

 

[glfredrick]

That is right. God never works that way to change the will of man. Even in those times we do see God actively intervene to ensure His purposes are carried out, He does so through relatively normative means. For example, he could have just supernaturally made Jonah want to go to Nineveh by giving him an obedient heart, but God doesn't work like that. He used circumstances such as a storm and a big fish to humble Jonah and bring him into submission...and He did this for his appointed messenger. How does that in anyway prove that God mystically and mysteriously gives some of his audience members new hearts so they will believe Jonah's message?

Do you pray for God to change the heart of lost sinners?

 

[Winman]

No, Just the one belief that regeneration comes before salvation. In fact some here say that Cornelius was regenerated before Peter even arrived. That being the case he was regenerated at least three days before he was saved. What if he died before Peter got there. He would have been regenerated but not saved? How is that even possible or make sense? It is just mysticism. He is mystically regenerated. No one knows how. And then after that when he hears the Word of God he is able to put his faith in Christ and be saved. That make no sense.

Actually, the passage on Cornelius implies (at least to me) that Cornelius had been a God-fearing man for years. He was known and approved among all the Jews which is incredible in itself, the Jews were very bigoted against the Gentiles. So, obviously he had won them over by his godly life for some time.

Acts 10:21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

So, no way Cornelius was regenerated just three days before Peter preached to him, he had been God-fearing for a long time, probably many years or decades and was known among all the Jews.

No person can be regenerated, that is, have spiritual life until all their sins are forgiven, and no one is forgiven until they first believe. The wages of sin is death, while any person is still in their sins they are spiritually dead. You cannot be regenerated, spritually alive, and dead in your trespasses and sins at the same moment, it is impossible and utterly illogical as well.

 

[Skandelon]

Do you pray for God to change the heart of lost sinners?

Of course, because I believe Jesus when he said, " He said to them, "When you pray, say: " 'Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. 3 Give us each day our daily bread. 4 Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation. ' " 5 Then he said to them, "Suppose one of you has a friend, and he goes to him at midnight and says, 'Friend, lend me three loaves of bread, 6 because a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have nothing to set before him.' 7 "Then the one inside answers, 'Don't bother me. The door is already locked, and my children are with me in bed. I can't get up and give you anything.' 8 I tell you, though he will not get up and give him the bread because he is his friend, yet because of the man's boldness he will get up and give him as much as he needs. 9 "So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 11 "Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

 

[preacher4truth]

(contrary to those who say He does not) God working to change both the heart and will of man:

"Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live." Deutoronomy 30:6

"For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Philippians 2:13

"A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." Acts 16:14

God changes hearts, and wills. He's allowed to, afterall He is Almighty God. It is when He does this that one is truly saved and regenerated,

 

[DHK]

Do you pray for God to change the heart of lost sinners?

Jesus said: "I am come to seek and to save the lost."
He also said: "Pray in this manner...thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

More importantly, He taught:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. (John 16:7-11)

 

[Skandelon]

(contrary to those who say He does not) God working to change both the heart and will of man:

No one here to my recollection is attempting to say otherwise.

"A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." Acts 16:14

So, when did her regeneration take place? Prior to her becoming a "worshiper of God" or when "the Lord opened her heart to respond?"

 

[preacher4truth]

No one here to my recollection is attempting to say otherwise.

So, when did her regeneration take place? Prior to her becoming a "worshiper of God" or when "the Lord opened her heart to respond?"

Nice try. You said this:

That is right. God never works that way to change the will of man. Even in those times we do see God actively intervene to ensure His purposes are carried out, He does so through relatively normative means.

But God Himself does work beyond "normative means" and in fact does change wills and hearts for His purposes and Glory by supernatural intervention, for he Himself is supernatural. He does these things to ensure His purposes are carried out. He also hardens hearts for His Glory, which is the seat of the will, Pharaoh for instance, Israel also for another instance, Romans 11, and in doing so His purposes? Well, they're carried out.

Re-read and meditate upon these again:

"Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live." Deutoronomy 30:6

"For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Philippians 2:13

"A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." Acts 16:14

Note also Job 42:2; "I know that You can do all things, and no purpose of Yours can be thwarted." and compare with Proverbs 21:1: "The kings heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes".

Oh, and no need to attempt and turn it to a "when" a person was regenerate subject, which is an entirely different subject.

I've plainly addressed your fallacious statement above that "He does not do this" then the pretense of yours after my reply that "no one here to your recollection" said that. He does in fact do these things, and it most certainly accomplishes His will and purpose.

God plainly works a work within people to accomplish His will and purposes, even changing the desire of man to His desires, which is a good thing.

 

[Skandelon]

Nice try. You said this:

That is right. God never works that way to change the will of man. Even in those times we do see God actively intervene to ensure His purposes are carried out, He does so through relatively normative means.

But God Himself does work beyond "normative means" and in fact does change wills and hearts for His purposes and Glory by supernatural intervention, for he Himself is supernatural.

Answer my question. Do you believe Lydia was regenerated prior to her becoming a "worshiper of God" or are you arguing that the reference to God's opening her heart is the work of regeneration?