What is "Old Time Religion"

[Luke2427]

What's wrong with "red neck"? What exactly do "red necks" do that doesn't honor Christ?

No more than Calvinists do that doesn't honor Christ.

Someone said a few posts back that Calvinists are an arrogant lot (meaning most of them are) and I pointed out that in my experience red necks are far worse.

But there are many red necks who are wonderful people.

I hadn't realized you were so prejudiced.

Are you trying to antagonize me by ignoring the bulk of the post to which you are responding?

Did I just comprehend your post correctly? You started this thread talking about misconceptions about "old time religion"; then you just indicated that there's a "more correct" way to conduct worship?

I hear "elitism" raising its ugly head....

You didn't provide a quote from my post here so I do not know to what you are referring.

 

[Luke2427]

"In your area among IFBs." Did you just make a conclusion about an denomination that spans the entire world, based on "your area"? Isn't that what you intellectual types call an "over-generalization logic error"?

"It has before on this site" - I've been on this site a LOT longer than you have. In your own words, please provide the proof.

No. Find Pastor Larry. Many of my exchanges with him will suffice.

I am not going to do the leg work on this one. I just don't care enough.

It is true. You can believe it or not. Suits me either way.

And it's not just in my area.

You ever heard of Jack Hyles? Seems like he played a role in the IFB movement.

At this point you'll say, "Many of us do not agree with Jack Hyles," which of course I already know. But it goes to prove that many, many, many thousands of people in your movement fit the bill. And not just in my area.

"In this culture in large numbers." Which culture? Southern? United States? I can tell you for a FACT that it doesn't exist in the culture where I currently live--which is a part of the United States. In fact, if you come into my IFB church wearing a tie, you'll be the odd man out.

I don't exactly know what you want me to say to that.

"No, not if none of them ask for one." The way I was raised, I was taught that if you say something bad about someone, and you find out it ain't necessarily true,

Well, there's your problem- it is true about many, many thousands of people who congregate under the IFB banner.

It doesn't have to be true about every one of you. I ahve always know that it isn't true about all of you. I did not say it was.

I said that I expected SOME of our IFB brethren to rant and rave, etc, etc, etc...

Funny thing is, seeing as how I lived in your area (Mississippi) for a few years, I was kinda under the impression that that's how folks in your area are raised, too. Or maybe it's only the uneducated ones?

I find your tone here to be snotty and rude. I am offended. I am waiting.

I'm not looking for a personal apology, Luke. I identified a logic error of over-generalization on your part, and I'm looking for you to apologize to the entire group of people that you've identified based on a subset.

There was no over-generalization. I never said all IFBers were this way. you took it to mean that, I suppose, becaue you are oversensitive.

But I never said it.

For me to apologize for saying something I never said would make me out to be a liar.

I'd rather not do that.

You introduced a premise; you admitted that you expected certain responses from IFBers; you didn't get those responses, and you spoke negatively about IFBers. I may be the only one that called you on that; but I believe you owe an apology to the IFBers who responded to you for making an unfair characterization of IFBers.

No. And I think I've explained clearly above why I am not going to do this.

Tell me you are offended and I'll consider offering one to you.

Suffice to say, it's obvious you don't see that you've committed any errors.

Right. For the same reason I do not see 5 flying spaghetti monsters in my yard right now- they do not exist.

Of the IFBers who have responded to you (and there have been a few; you only have to look at their personal profiles to find out who they are), you don't care if you've inadvertently lumped them into your categorization of "that crowd."

If they are not the type of IFBers who do those things then they are not lumped into "that crowd".

It's really very simple, Don. But my sermons are done for this weekend. I am caught up on my school work. I spent the afternoon with my family.

I've got all day if you want to keep going back and forth on this.

I'm baby sitting right now (my kids) and I really don't have much else to do. I'm snuggled up with a few good books and I can post between chapters.

It's up to you- but I have been clear.

At this point you are just determined to win. If not you would have dropped this a while back.

But I expect you'll try to say that you know there are some IFBers different than the ones you're identifying;

DING DING DING DING!!!

and that an intelligent person would understand that you're only talking about "that crowd."

You're on a roll now!:wavey:

And then, further on, I expect you'll get around to saying that you don't need to apologize to the ones who have posted here, because they're obviously not the ones you were talking about.

Now you got it! :thumbs:

In other words, I expect no apologies from you, and you've fulfilled those expectations.

I expect you to not yield that you have misunderstood my comments and I expect you not to apologize for wasting our time since you were obviously wrong. Let's see if we BOTH get our expectations!

For the record: I don't identify all Calvinists based on you, Luke.

I'm glad. But I'm really not a bad guy if you'll get to know me.:wavey:

 

[BobinKy]

And true revival will result in the best worship possible.

It will not be sloppy, unorganized or "red-neck", imo (unless, as I said, that is the best those particular revived Christians can do).

Redneck definition

A slang term, usually for a rural white southerner who is politically conservative, racist, and a religious fundamentalist ( see fundamentalism). This term is generally considered offensive. It originated in reference to agricultural workers, alluding to how the back of a person's neck will be burned by the sun if he works long hours in the fields.

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition (2005).


. . .


Luke, is "redneck" an appropriate term for Christian discussion?


...Bob

 

[Luke2427]

Redneck definition

A slang term, usually for a rural white southerner who is politically conservative, racist, and a religious fundamentalist ( see fundamentalism). This term is generally considered offensive. It originated in reference to agricultural workers, alluding to how the back of a person's neck will be burned by the sun if he works long hours in the fields.

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition (2005).


. . .


Luke, is "redneck" an appropriate term for Christian discussion?


...Bob

I'll think about it.

My initial thoughts are that it IS appropriate because I did not apply it to a single person.

Red necks exist. Some proudly tout the title. Some of them are wonderful people.

But many of them are very arrogant- that is my experience.

I say that in contradistinction from the earlier poster who said that Calvinists tend to be arrogant.

I actually AM a Calvinist. Many of us on bb actually claim that title.

So that post CERTAINLY has the potential to be more offensive than mine.

Have you seen that post?

If so, have you rebuked that poster in like fashion?

 

[BobinKy]

And true revival will result in the best worship possible.

It will not be sloppy, unorganized or "red-neck", imo (unless, as I said, that is the best those particular revived Christians can do).

Luke...

What someone else said or did is not what is being called out here. You are being called out for your use of "redneck."

Let us examine what you really said.

True revival will result in the best worship possible, but not the worship of rednecks -- southern white poor people.​

Is that what you meant to say?

Did you mean to say that southern white poor people are incapable of worshiping God?

If you are saying that, then are you telling us that God does not recognize or receive the worship of southern white poor people?

What is the scripture reference for this?

Are you also telling us the Reformed doctrine of election does not cross geographical, racial, and economic boundaries? That God elects individual souls based upon where they live, their color of skin, and their economic means?

Is this the Reformed doctrine of election?

Is this your doctrine of election?

...Bob

 

[Don]

Luke - this isn't about "winning." If it were, then it would be sad, because you, I, and everyone who reads the discourse between us would already have lost.

This was about what's right. Is it right for you to be derogatory towards people? You claim to be a pastor; is that really the character trait of a pastor? Do you get up behind your pulpit and preach/teach your flock that it's okay to be derogatory towards others? If not, then why was it okay to do so here? And if you do, well, that's an entirely different conversation.

I pointed out that your references towards IFBers were derogatory; now you've gone and made derogatory comments about rednecks, and Bob called you out on it.

Your response in both cases? You don't think you've done anything wrong. Apparently, in your mind, as long as you're talking about a specific subset, it's okay to be derogatory.

Have I been snotty? Yep, and you know what? I truly am sorry. I have conversed with you in a less-than-Christian manner. It would have been easy to say that I let you get my goat; but that would be a pitiful excuse. I'm the one who let you get it. It doesn't justify how I reacted towards you.

You say if I got to know you, I'd like you; I doubt it. You see, if you're true to yourself, then in person, you're no different than what you appear here on this board. I find you to be pompous, arrogant, prideful, and condescending; I would have no truck with you.

And if you're not like that face-to-face, then you're a double-minded man who is one way face-to-face, and another when posting on this board; and I'd have no truck with a man I couldn't trust.

It would have been easy to simply say, "if anyone was offended by my words, I apologize"; and then explain exactly which IFBers you were talking about. And I would have most likely come back with "thanks for the clarification; my bad for not understanding who you were talking about." Seriously. I've been on this message board for over 10 years now, and have done that more than once.

Finally, one last comment about you, Luke: It's greatly amusing, in a sad, sad way, how you talk about "this is the way someone else talked about me" as if that justifies your responses. Take responsibility for your own actions, sir; don't point back at others as if that somehow makes it okay to be derogatory towards others. It only brings you down to their level, and tarnishes you.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke...

What someone else said or did is not what is being called out here. You are being called out for your use of "redneck."

Let us examine what you really said.

True revival will result in the best worship possible, but not the worship of rednecks -- southern white poor people.​

Is that what you meant to say?

Did you mean to say that southern white poor people are incapable of worshiping God?

If you are saying that, then are you telling us that God does not recognize or receive the worship of southern white poor people?

What is the scripture reference for this?

Are you also telling us the Reformed doctrine of election does not cross geographical, racial, and economic boundaries? That God elects individual souls based upon where they live, their color of skin, and their economic means?

Is this the Reformed doctrine of election?

Is this your doctrine of election?

...Bob

I don't know what you are responding to.

It would be helpful if perhaps you'd respond line by line.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke - this isn't about "winning." If it were, then it would be sad, because you, I, and everyone who reads the discourse between us would already have lost.

This was about what's right. Is it right for you to be derogatory towards people? You claim to be a pastor; is that really the character trait of a pastor? Do you get up behind your pulpit and preach/teach your flock that it's okay to be derogatory towards others? If not, then why was it okay to do so here? And if you do, well, that's an entirely different conversation.

I pointed out that your references towards IFBers were derogatory; now you've gone and made derogatory comments about rednecks, and Bob called you out on it.

Your response in both cases? You don't think you've done anything wrong. Apparently, in your mind, as long as you're talking about a specific subset, it's okay to be derogatory.

Have I been snotty? Yep, and you know what? I truly am sorry. I have conversed with you in a less-than-Christian manner. It would have been easy to say that I let you get my goat; but that would be a pitiful excuse. I'm the one who let you get it. It doesn't justify how I reacted towards you.

You say if I got to know you, I'd like you; I doubt it. You see, if you're true to yourself, then in person, you're no different than what you appear here on this board. I find you to be pompous, arrogant, prideful, and condescending; I would have no truck with you.

And if you're not like that face-to-face, then you're a double-minded man who is one way face-to-face, and another when posting on this board; and I'd have no truck with a man I couldn't trust.

It would have been easy to simply say, "if anyone was offended by my words, I apologize"; and then explain exactly which IFBers you were talking about. And I would have most likely come back with "thanks for the clarification; my bad for not understanding who you were talking about." Seriously. I've been on this message board for over 10 years now, and have done that more than once.

Finally, one last comment about you, Luke: It's greatly amusing, in a sad, sad way, how you talk about "this is the way someone else talked about me" as if that justifies your responses. Take responsibility for your own actions, sir; don't point back at others as if that somehow makes it okay to be derogatory towards others. It only brings you down to their level, and tarnishes you.

Do you feel better, now?:wavey:

 

[preacher4truth]

Do you feel better, now?:wavey:

Yep, Don is correct in his assessment of you. Right on the money.

You'll never get it. Unless perhaps you grow up someday.

 

[Luke2427]

Yep, Don is correct in his assessment of you. Right on the money.

You'll never get it. Unless perhaps you grow up someday.

Another drive-by post.

Still true to form.

 

[Don]

I don't know what you are responding to.

It would be helpful if perhaps you'd respond line by line.

Silly man. There were only two lines, and Bob quoted them both. Now you're just quibbling.

 

[Phillip]

See, in the grand scheme of church history "Just as I am" and "Softly and Tenderly" is contemporary music- about a 120 years old or so is my estimate.

I have heard people speak of the "old music" and be referring to "Because He Lives" and "He Touched Me" and "Mansion Over the Hill Top".

These songs are just a few decades old. The authors of a couple of them are still alive!!


This is the problem with "Old Time Religion"- IT AIN'T.

It's usually just the styles and songs of old people's childhoods.

That's the sum of it in my experience.

If the people are alive who enjoyed it- IT AIN'T TRULY OLD.

And the INVITATION that I imagine you are referring to is BRAND NEW!! At least comparably.

It is not much more than a hundred years old!

So "Old Time Religion" is really just something that makes us feel nostalgic because it stirs some childhood feelings up in older people- isn't that right?

Simplicity has nothing to do with "Old Time Religion" unless "OTR" is just something old people remember fondly from their younger days.

The Old Paths in the Bible had NOTHING to do with shaking hands or songs barely a hundred years old or simplicity and it SURELY didn't have anything to do with Altar Calls.


So would you be willing to concede that what you think of as old time religion is really just a matter of preference and has no REAL Bible roots?

This is the best description of "old time religion" I have yet to see. Being about 53, I enjoy the old hymns, I do get tired of some of the "quit smoking and drinking" messages that completely skip the reason we are in church in the first place. I did the sound for Gene Bartlett (look under authors in the back of your hymnal -- if it is old enough) and his songs were considered NEW when I was just out of college. I remember the songs we sang at church camp. They were all new and no different than many of the newer songs.

I do not like some of the modern songs, and many I do. I don't like the "rap" songs that are played by modern "Christian" radio stations that often use curse words and but as things change they often become liberal for a period and then will float back to more Biblical ways.

I get tired of (have family members in an IFB church) where the women are submissive and they cannot do anything, I mean anything without asking their husbands and the pastor berates children of three years old for drawing on the bulletin instead of listening to his yelling. I visit to see my kids and grandkids, but I get tired of young seminary students coming in and preaching and being rated by the pastor on how much or loud they yell about our sins rather than the content of the message.

I get tired of skipping from one verse in the OT to one in the New to prove that the KJV is the ONLY Bible God has for the English speaking people. You can make the Bible say anything if you skip around and not provide context of who you are listening to, the reason they are talking and what prose they are using. For instance, modern end-times are taken from OT verses that were intended for the old nation of Israel.

I get tired of hearing how perfect Israel is and if we don't back them we are going to be cursed when Israel is one of the highest ratios of athiests in the world and is also considered a "party" country by our sailors who take port there for R&R and love it because you can party and there few morales. (I've been there before I was saved and partied with the soldiers (boys and girls) and I know. I also have Jewish friends who are about as athiest as you can be and laugh when churches talk about the Holy Israel of today. (Now, don't get me wrong. I am military civilian and Israel is one of our best allies and we need to keep it that way, but that is from a strategic point of view. Most of these preachers don't even know that probably half of the citizens of Israel are Arabs who were adopted in as citizens as part of the new agreement when the state was formed after Jews slowly and quietly bought up land to start a new state.

I don't have a problem with hearing a preacher say that we need to be different in the world at our work place in the way we talk, dress and we should be modest, but not at the expense of WHY we should do this.

And I get tired of being told the Southern Baptist Church down the street is just flat "evil" because they have a drum in their Sunday morning worship and they use the "Non-Inspired Bible" (NIV) (please excuse this, it is just a quote from a true believing pastor who thinks he has the answers.

Old fashioned: You hit it on the head. It is what you grew up with, just like I listen to the music on a radio station that I listened to while I was in college rather than today's music my kids listen to. I remember my parents cringing when I was old enough to drive and controlled the radio. They didn't scold me, they understood that my music just didn't sound like the music they listened to. Is the world becoming more evil? Sure, but doesn't the Bible say it will--after all Satan is the king of this world. So, we need to discern what is BIBLICAL and what is just "Old Fashioned" for the sake of feeling good when we leave our church.

By the way, this same IFB church has a huge pot-luck dinner about twice a month at a minimum and they laugh at their sin of overindulging and all of the men having pot-bellies. This is old fashioned.

 

[preacher4truth]

Actually, Don is correct in his assessment of what "Old Time Religion" is. The OP left room for subjectivity. Only to slam others later who don't agree with him on it. Thus, the OP was written in such a way as to go either way and any way, according to the author of it.

By his conclusions of what it is, the OP could've been phrased differently, such as "Old Time Religion isn't true Biblical Church Worship/Why is it not True Church Worship, or similar to NT type."

By the way, the way they "did church" in NT times was old time religion to some, and certainly they saw changes, and got their feathers ruffled. It's nothing new.

Again, the OP is written in order to slam others and get into an arguing fit with others. Kind of like a teacher getting up in SS after studying an obscure passage in detail, then expecting the students to have the same answers immediately on the spot, when they've not looked at it, and looking condescendingly on them for it. Seen it happen.

No difference here.

 

[dcorbett]

and this thread has served its purpose of belittling IFBs and making fun of KJV Bible holders.

I would like to see it closed.

 

[Don]

Well, I'd still like to see Luke explain to Bob about the "redneck" comment....

 

[Tom Butler]

I wouldn't worry too much. Those of us who are rednecks by birth know we are and are somewhat proud of it. We're not insulted.

And those of you who are not rednecks know Luke wasn't talking about you, so you have no reason to be upset.

There are a few rednecks who don't think they are, so maybe they are upset. But they shouldn't be because Luke described them accurately.

Most people who call us rednecks think it's a putdown. We rednecks aren't sensitive enough to get bent out of shape. So we really don't mind. So when we hear it, we flash out teeth in a big grin (or maybe we flash our tooth).

It's really not a big deal.

 

[Don]

I wouldn't worry too much. Those of us who are rednecks by birth know we are and are somewhat proud of it. We're not insulted.

And those of you who are not rednecks know Luke wasn't talking about you, so you have no reason to be upset.

There are a few rednecks who don't think they are, so maybe they are upset. But they shouldn't be because Luke described them accurately.

Most people who call us rednecks think it's a putdown. We rednecks aren't sensitive enough to get bent out of shape. So we really don't mind. So when we hear it, we flash out teeth in a big grin (or maybe we flash our tooth).

It's really not a big deal.

Oh, it's not being called a redneck that was offensive; it was the indication that "redneck worship" was somehow "lesser" than other forms of worship that I think Bob was calling him on.

 

[Old Union Brother]

This is not a drive by post. I read with hurting and disgust the malicious attacks on brothers in the gospel. Look at what Paul wrote :

Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Old time religion is not something from my childhood it is God given, spirit filled church. "Old time religion" is not a mockery as has been portray here. If you want to know what true "old time religion" maybe we all should consider:

(Jer 6:16) Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

I feel that I have found that old path.

I'm probably one of those that would be considered having "redneck religion"; we sing lined out hymns written by Watts, Newton, Toplady, and others. We don't have Piano's, guiters, or drums. You will not hear rock gospel, rap, or contemporary country gospel coming from our churches. Our ministers are not seminary educated but we have some of the most educated men preaching the gospel you will find anywhere. Where did they get the education? From God! They are God called men full of the Holy Ghost that fulfill the qualifications as set down in 1 Timothy 3.


As dcorbett said

I would like to see it closed.

The belittling of each other needs to stop!!!!!

 

[preacher4truth]

This is not a drive by post. I read with hurting and disgust the malicious attacks on brothers in the gospel. Look at what Paul wrote :



Old time religion is not something from my childhood it is God given, spirit filled church. "Old time religion" is not a mockery as has been portray here. If you want to know what true "old time religion" maybe we all should consider:



I feel that I have found that old path.

I'm probably one of those that would be considered having "redneck religion"; we sing lined out hymns written by Watts, Newton, Toplady, and others. We don't have Piano's, guiters, or drums. You will not hear rock gospel, rap, or contemporary country gospel coming from our churches. Our ministers are not seminary educated but we have some of the most educated men preaching the gospel you will find anywhere. Where did they get the education? From God! They are God called men full of the Holy Ghost that fulfill the qualifications as set down in 1 Timothy 3.


As dcorbett said



The belittling of each other needs to stop!!!!!

That's why I say if what you believe Old Time Religion to be, then you are correct. It's subjective. Whatever it means to you, you are correct.

:thumbsup:

This OP was written to malign and mock others.

It's foolishness. Period.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is not a drive by post. I read with hurting and disgust the malicious attacks on brothers in the gospel. Look at what Paul wrote :



Old time religion is not something from my childhood it is God given, spirit filled church. "Old time religion" is not a mockery as has been portray here. If you want to know what true "old time religion" maybe we all should consider:



I feel that I have found that old path.

I'm probably one of those that would be considered having "redneck religion"; we sing lined out hymns written by Watts, Newton, Toplady, and others. We don't have Piano's, guiters, or drums. You will not hear rock gospel, rap, or contemporary country gospel coming from our churches. Our ministers are not seminary educated but we have some of the most educated men preaching the gospel you will find anywhere. Where did they get the education? From God! They are God called men full of the Holy Ghost that fulfill the qualifications as set down in 1 Timothy 3.


As dcorbett said



The belittling of each other needs to stop!!!!!

Are you saying that there is hatred for the "Old School" churches that prompted the thread....I did not perceive it that way. Rather I believe it was a commentary on churches that become pompous & arrogant in their "ways of doing things". Now I dont know if I'm accurate in this understanding, but we all have to measure our sincerity in "Going to God" & worshiping sincerely. That I believe was the intent of the post & not a planned attack on any given group.

Now if I can speak to the Old School Baptist Churches.....(1) We have been around for a very long time & (2) our ways can at times appear strange to ....how do I say this...."More Contemporary Brethren." But at the end of the day I hope they realize that we are Christian Believing People who deserve the respect due us & if you do not share that understanding well then thats your problem.:smilewinkgrin: