What is preventing our Savior’s return?

[robycop3]

I must reject that answer because the LORD warned 3-4 generations - the maximum lifetime of those participating in the rejection, & who endorsed their parents' actions, rather than repenting.

Vast numbers of Jews did indeed welcome their Messiah, including those responding to John (baptist), Jesus during his ministry, those responding to the Apostolic Gospel which went out to "every nation under heaven", the dispersed Jews who were the first when Paul & others preached. That vast number were identified variously as "Christians," "the Way" & various local churches. They did not identify themselves as continuing Jews. They were indeed the "Holy Nation" the Nation

God is a God of justice & any failure to protect & preserve his chosen people AS HIS PEOPLE would be seen by unbelievers as a failure on his part, as Moses pointed out -

Exo. 32:9 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.”
11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’ ”[fn] 14 So the LORD relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Mat 21:43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
44 “And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.​

Those who persisted in their rejection of their Messiah perished as prophesied. THose who believed formed the continuing Holy Nation, bearing fruits for Messiah's glory.

IMO those Jews who continue to reject the Gospel are simply a people group holding to the religious elements of Judaism. As far as we are concerned the are a people potentially for whom Christ lived & died, welcomed by the Gospel, but not denied the Gospel nor kept in unbelief because of the actions of the Jews of Jesus' time.

As far as the church & the nations of the world, they should be free to worship as they please without fear or favour. They certainly should NOT be given Christian support in their conquest & oppression of Palestine & the people living there. THAT is ongoing persecution for which God will judge.

Today's Jews are the descendants of the Jews that lived during Roman times. And while many DID believe jesus then, the majority did NOT. After all, WHO HAD HIM KILLED ?

While today's Jews are of mixed ancestry, their main bloodline is Jewish. And the Palestinians are largely descendants of the Philistines, Israel's old enemy, while many others of them are largely of Arab (Ishmaelite) descent, another traditional enemy of Israel. Trying to mix them is as mixing baking soda & vinegar.

The 'beast' will win the world's admiration by brokering a peace treaty that'll cause both sides to disarm, & Israel will become "a land of unwalled villages".

No, GOD is far-from-done with Judah & Israel !

 

[Covenanter]

Today's Jews are the descendants of the Jews that lived during Roman times. And while many DID believe jesus then, the majority did NOT. After all, WHO HAD HIM KILLED ?

While today's Jews are of mixed ancestry, their main bloodline is Jewish. And the Palestinians are largely descendants of the Philistines, Israel's old enemy, while many others of them are largely of Arab (Ishmaelite) descent, another traditional enemy of Israel. Trying to mix them is as mixing baking soda & vinegar.

The 'beast' will win the world's admiration by brokering a peace treaty that'll cause both sides to disarm, & Israel will become "a land of unwalled villages".

No, GOD is far-from-done with Judah & Israel !

No-one can affirm the ancestry of today's Jews. They have been European for 1500 years & all their records were destroyed in AD 70. I know God knows who his children are - Abraham's seed, children by faith in their Messiah.

What proportion of Jews demanded his death is not recorded, but we do know that the Jewish leaders, who wanted to kill him, were afraid of the crowds in the temple.

Mat 21:46 But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.​

We know too that so many welcomed him on Palm Sunday that the Jews lamented

John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, “You see that you are accomplishing nothing. Look, the world has gone after Him!”​

It was done at night, in the Sanhedrin & Pilate & Herod's palaces, not before the crowds of Jesus' followers. And we know that thousands confessed faith in him at Pentecost & at subsequent temple gatherings. We also know that the Jewish leaders continued to be afraid of the crowd, now numbering 5-8,000.

The NT writers make it very clear that ethnicity is of no significance. ONE BLOOD! Can you show from the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles where God prophesies the reversal of his love of the world? Certainly God prophesies blessing for Israel - he gave the long promised Messiah and all believers were received as his born again children.

As for God continuing to reject his people for 1,800 - 2,000 years, read Ezekiel 18.

19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.​

The wonder of the Gospel is that all are welcome, regardless of ethnicity. Read John 4 for Jesus' attitude to the Palestinians of his time. The prophet Micah is directly applicable to the attitude of today's Zionists - e.g.

Mic 2:1 Woe to those who devise iniquity, And work out evil on their beds!
At morning light they practice it, Because it is in the power of their hand.
2 They covet fields and take them by violence,
Also houses, and seize them.
So they oppress a man and his house,
A man and his inheritance.​

Most of Micah is relevant - read the whole, including where he speaks of international worship & peace in ch. 4. You are making spiritual, Gospel prophecies carnal.

True Israel is indeed a land of unwalled villages - we live in a world at enmity against God. Christians do not fight for the Gospel. Many of course do fight for their nations when called on, but that is a different question.

 

[robycop3]

.

(Snipped for brevity)

The history of the Jews makes it plain they're real Jews. They've been the most-persecuted people in history that haven't been wiped out, & retain their national identity. Their history from Roman times is plain, & many a family has kept it. And again, their rise from whipping boys to a powerful little nation can only have been by God's power. There's simply no legitimate denial that those who call themselves Jews ARE Jews !

While their genealogies were lost in 70 AD, they knew they were Jews then, & many have their genealogies from then til now. As I pointed out yesterday, even the godless Napoleon believed their survival was a miracle.

You may deny all you wish, but there's plenty of evidence pointing out whom they are, such as having their own sovereign nation again with Jerusalem as its capital.

And some of the events that will occur before Jesus returns involves the Jews & the rest of israel.

Now, Israel is not "a land of unwalled villages" now. It's an armed camp ! Every home contains weapons, many of them military. Every Israeli of school age on knows how to use them. They have a saying, "Every village a fort; every structure a pillbox." being greatly outnumbered & surrounded by enemies, they're prepared to fight to the death if invaded; they'll never submit meekly to an enemy as they did the nazis.

God made certain promises to Abe, Ike, & Jake, & He will keep them despite the jews' false worship.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

The Abrahamic House, currently scheduled to be built in Abu Dhabi, will likely be built on the Temple Mount.

Is the Temple Mount you are referencing a hill located in the Old City of Jerusalem?

If so, how did the Abrahamic House get moved over 600 miles from Abu Dhabi to Jerusalem?

Perhaps I missed something along the way. Help me understand your position.

 

[xlsdraw]

Is the Temple Mount you are referencing a hill located in the Old City of Jerusalem?

If so, how did the Abrahamic House get moved over 600 miles from Abu Dhabi to Jerusalem?

Perhaps I missed something along the way. Help me understand your position.

The Gog-Magog war changes world politic. Currently the world bullies Israel and the current plan is for the Abrahamic House to be built in Abu Dhabi. The Muslims will not let the Israelites build on the Temple Mount. After the Gog-Magog war, Israel will have the leverage to insist that their Temple be built upon the Temple Mount. If you recall, even though the Muslims have had structures on the Temple Mount for 1,400 years, for nearly 100 years the Catholics took the Temple Mount and occupied the Islamic structures until the Muslims were able to retake it.
All three "Abrahamic" religions lust over the Temple Mount.
But there are many powerful liberalized Jews, both in America and Israel, that believe in the folly of interreligious coexistence. They will persuade Israel to allow structures from all three religions to be built: their Temple, a Mosque, and a Cathedral on the Temple Mount.
An overlooked part of the Gog-Magog prophecy, is that there shall be a Worldwide earthquake, the likes of which man has never seen. The current structures on the Temple Mount have already been damaged or destroyed before by common earthquakes.
Israel typically has a major earthquake approximately every 100 years. They are already overdue for their next major earthquake.
Can you just imagine the carnage of built up cities of the earth when a Worldwide earthquake takes place?
A few years ago, the Sea of Galilee, was on the verge of the water level becoming so low that the water would become too salty. Today, it's approaching the point at which water must be let out of it.
I expect Israel and America to be exceptionally powerful and healthy, in relation to the rest of the world, in the aftermath of the Gog-Magog war.
This Human Fraternity movement is the wicked vehicle through which the Antichrist unites the earth and gets the Temple built on the Temple Mount that he lusts to sit in. Hope that helps.
And by the way, America is well watered these days as well. The world is seeing an uptick in locust activity as well. But God allowed the great American locust, America's only species, to become extinct.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

The Gog-Magog war changes world politic. Currently the world bullies Israel and the current plan is for the Abrahamic House to be built in Abu Dhabi. The Muslims will not let the Israelites build on the Temple Mount. After the Gog-Magog war, Israel will have the leverage to insist that their Temple be built upon the Temple Mount. If you recall, even though the Muslims have had structures on the Temple Mount for 1,400 years, for nearly 100 years the Catholics took the Temple Mount and occupied the Islamic structures until the Muslims were able to retake it.
All three "Abrahamic" religions lust over the Temple Mount.
But there are many powerful liberalized Jews, both in America and Israel, that believe in the folly of interreligious coexistence. They will persuade Israel to allow structures from all three religions to be built: their Temple, a Mosque, and a Cathedral on the Temple Mount.
An overlooked part of the Gog-Magog prophecy, is that there shall be a Worldwide earthquake, the likes of which man has never seen. The current structures on the Temple Mount have already been damaged or destroyed before by common earthquakes.
Israel typically has a major earthquake approximately every 100 years. They are already overdue for their next major earthquake.
Can you just imagine the carnage of built up cities of the earth when a Worldwide earthquake takes place?
A few years ago, the Sea of Galilee, was on the verge of the water level becoming so low that the water would become too salty. Today, it's approaching the point at which water must be let out of it.
I expect Israel and America to be exceptionally powerful and healthy, in relation to the rest of the world, in the aftermath of the Gog-Magog war.
This Human Fraternity movement is the wicked vehicle through which the Antichrist unites the earth and gets the Temple built on the Temple Mount that he lusts to sit in. Hope that helps.
And by the way, America is well watered these days as well. The world is seeing an uptick in locust activity as well. But God allowed the great American locust, America's only species, to become extinct.

Thanks for your reply. This world is changing fast.

The Bible predicts that once the end time prophecy fulfillment begins, they will be fulfilled in rapid succession.

 

[robycop3]

God mentions "Zion" quite-frequently. He chose this hill back in David's time, the place where Araunah had a threshing floor. I believe the Jews are going by this as the place to build their new temple.

And Jerusalem is still trod underfoot by gentiles, from the bands of Moslems & non-Jewish Christians who visit the respective holy sites, to the Arabs & Palestinians who live in it.

 

[xlsdraw]

Thanks for your reply. This world is changing fast.

The Bible predicts that once the end time prophecy fulfillment begins, they will be fulfilled in rapid succession.

Exactly. This world is primed for what is coming. The world behaves as if God has left the room and isn't coming back, as if God is powerless, as if man is the supreme authority. What a rude awakening this world has coming.

 

[Covenanter]

Is there anything in the New Covenant Scriptures that prophesy a return to the Old Covenant system, including reestablishing the state of Israel with a temple & sacrificial worship, populated by ethnic Jews?

I cannot see any such references. I can only see the Church comprising all the redeemed people of God as one body, one holy nation, as also prophesied to the patriarchs. A Gospel church looking for the return of Jesus to establish the NH&NE.

 

[robycop3]

Is there anything in the New Covenant Scriptures that prophesy a return to the Old Covenant system, including reestablishing the state of Israel with a temple & sacrificial worship, populated by ethnic Jews?

I cannot see any such references. I can only see the Church comprising all the redeemed people of God as one body, one holy nation, as also prophesied to the patriarchs. A Gospel church looking for the return of Jesus to establish the NH&NE.

Scripture says the ruler will make the daily sacrifice cease. The Jews fully intend to re-institute it when their temple is built.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Scripture says the ruler will make the daily sacrifice cease.

Daniel 11:31. If you look at the context, that applies to Antiochus Epiphanes who, among other things, desecrated the altar in the Temple c167 BC.

 

[Covenanter]

Is there anything in the New Covenant Scriptures that prophesy a return to the Old Covenant system, including reestablishing the state of Israel with a temple & sacrificial worship, populated by ethnic Jews?

I cannot see any such references. I can only see the Church comprising all the redeemed people of God as one body, one holy nation, as also prophesied to the patriarchs. A Gospel church looking for the return of Jesus to establish the NH&NE.

Scripture says the ruler will make the daily sacrifice cease. The Jews fully intend to re-institute it when their temple is built.

So your answer is a clear "NO."
You can't see or suggest ANY New Covenant Scripture that supports your teaching.
You can only refer to a Prophetic Scripture that prophesies the end of sacrifices in the middle of the 70th week - around AD 33, when Jesus declared them "FINISHED."

 

[Covenanter]

The NT writers make it very clear that ethnicity is of no significance. ONE BLOOD! Can you show from the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles where God prophesies the reversal of his love of the world? Certainly God prophesies blessing for Israel - he gave the long promised Messiah and all believers were received as his born again children.

Scripture says the ruler will make the daily sacrifice cease. The Jews fully intend to re-institute it when their temple is built.

So your answer is a clear "NO."
You can't see or suggest ANY New Covenant Scripture that supports your teaching.
You can only refer to a Prophetic Scripture that prophesies the end of sacrifices in the middle of the 70th week - around AD 33, when Jesus declared them "FINISHED."

And so contributions to the thread cease -

 

[thomas15]

Daniel 11:31. If you look at the context, that applies to Antiochus Epiphanes who, among other things, desecrated the altar in the Temple c167 BC.

This would have a great argument for the modern preterist movement if it were not for the fact that Jesus, looking ahead into the future, stated that believers should study Daniel, in particular Daniel ch 9 (Matt 24:15).

 

[JonC]

This would have a great argument for the modern preterist movement if it were not for the fact that Jesus, looking ahead into the future, stated that believers should study Daniel, in particular Daniel ch 9 (Matt 24:15).

Very true. That is exactly why we cannot apply the passage to Antiochus Epiphanes. Scripture does not allow it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

This would have a great argument for the modern preterist movement if it were not for the fact that Jesus, looking ahead into the future, stated that believers should study Daniel, in particular Daniel ch 9 (Matt 24:15).

Why do you think that? The last thing I am is a Preterist, but our Lord prophesied the destruction of the temple and was asked specifically when that would happen, so it would be a bit odd if He didn't address it at all.

 

[JonC]

Why do you think that? The last thing I am is a Preterist, but our Lord prophesied the destruction of the temple and was asked specifically when that would happen, so it would be a bit odd if He didn't address it at all.

I wondered the same thing. The reason I thought you may be is that you interpreted the passage in Daniel to look to Antiochus (which spurred the Maccabean Revolt) whereas Jesus presented it as a future event. It is prior to 70 AD, of course, but it is the same in principle.

 

[timtofly]

The tribulation has started. Revelation 6 and the seals are in the process of being opened. Covid19 is the first seal. The red hot spots all over the world was the second seal. This is the time of preparation during the last months of the church as wise virgins for the rapture.


How does one get rid of all these adds?

 

[timtofly]

The Gog-Magog war changes world politic. Currently the world bullies Israel and the current plan is for the Abrahamic House to be built in Abu Dhabi. The Muslims will not let the Israelites build on the Temple Mount. After the Gog-Magog war, Israel will have the leverage to insist that their Temple be built upon the Temple Mount. If you recall, even though the Muslims have had structures on the Temple Mount for 1,400 years, for nearly 100 years the Catholics took the Temple Mount and occupied the Islamic structures until the Muslims were able to retake it.
All three "Abrahamic" religions lust over the Temple Mount.
But there are many powerful liberalized Jews, both in America and Israel, that believe in the folly of interreligious coexistence. They will persuade Israel to allow structures from all three religions to be built: their Temple, a Mosque, and a Cathedral on the Temple Mount.
An overlooked part of the Gog-Magog prophecy, is that there shall be a Worldwide earthquake, the likes of which man has never seen. The current structures on the Temple Mount have already been damaged or destroyed before by common earthquakes.
Israel typically has a major earthquake approximately every 100 years. They are already overdue for their next major earthquake.
Can you just imagine the carnage of built up cities of the earth when a Worldwide earthquake takes place?
A few years ago, the Sea of Galilee, was on the verge of the water level becoming so low that the water would become too salty. Today, it's approaching the point at which water must be let out of it.
I expect Israel and America to be exceptionally powerful and healthy, in relation to the rest of the world, in the aftermath of the Gog-Magog war.
This Human Fraternity movement is the wicked vehicle through which the Antichrist unites the earth and gets the Temple built on the Temple Mount that he lusts to sit in. Hope that helps.
And by the way, America is well watered these days as well. The world is seeing an uptick in locust activity as well. But God allowed the great American locust, America's only species, to become extinct.

The Gog-Magog war happens after the 1000 year reign of Christ.

 

[Covenanter]

This would have a great argument for the modern preterist movement if it were not for the fact that Jesus, looking ahead into the future, stated that believers should study Daniel, in particular Daniel ch 9 (Matt 24:15).

Why do you think that? The last thing I am is a Preterist, but our Lord prophesied the destruction of the temple and was asked specifically when that would happen, so it would be a bit odd if He didn't address it at all.

I wondered the same thing. The reason I thought you may be is that you interpreted the passage in Daniel to look to Antiochus (which spurred the Maccabean Revolt) whereas Jesus presented it as a future event. It is prior to 70 AD, of course, but it is the same in principle.

Daniel 9 concerns the 70 weeks prophecy, 70x7 years as distinct from the 70 years exile. The anointed one, Jesus, would finish his saving work within that period. 69 weeks continued until Jesus' baptist & anointing, so would conclude about 3 1/2 years after Calvary, about the time of the stoning of Stephen (when the Jewish leaders were declared "uncircumcised") & the welcoming of Cornelius without circumcision.

I don't see how "partial Preterism" which sees the tribulation & the temple destruction as the fulfilment of prophecy as "the last thing" apart from Jesus' return for resurrection & judgment & the NH&NE.