What is Scripture?

[gb93433]

Originally posted by michelle:


This is a very strange, foriegn and new understanding/definition of what the scriptures are and I do not hold to this same. Scriptures are the very words of the Lord for our growing in the Lord. Scripture is that by which the Lord speaks to us, and to that also which he uses to also chasten us. The scriptures are those to which REVEAL OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST and he is a personal Saviour, and a personal Lord, and therefore his words are to be interpreted and taken personally.

It is not I, but many others here, that refuse to look at the historical truth of this matter, and judge it by the standards the Lord has set down in his words of truth.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Scripture is always past tense. They were recorded many years preceding us. They were never written to us personally. So scripture must be interpreted in past tense. Only its application can be present tense.

Let me give you an example of Phil 1:6. So often that verse is interpreted as a promise. It is not a promise but a prayer. Paul uses the same form used in secular letters of the day. We do the same thing today as a secular writer would.

The standard form of a letter of that day was:

Common Elements Shared By Both The New Testament And The Contemporary Hellenistic Letter


Praescriptio (Prescript)
Superscriptio (Author/Sender)
Adscriptio [Recipient(s)]
Salutatio (Greeting)

Proem (Prayer of Thanksgiving and/or Intercession)

Body
Opening Formulae
Request/Appeal
Disclosure
Expressions of Astonishment
Formulae of Compliance
Formulae of Hearing/Learning
Formulae of Petition
Traditions Material
From Worship Liturgy
Hymns
Confessions of Faith
Lord Supper Narratives
From Early Preaching
Kerygma
Verba Christi
Old Testament References
Parenesis
Lists of Vice/Virtues
Haustafeln (Domestic Codes)
Gemeindetafeln (Duty Codes)
Judgment
Closing
Eschatological Affirmations
Travelogue/Apostolic Parousia

Conclusio (Eschatokoll)
Greetings
Doxology
Benediction

from Lorin L. Cranford, Exegeting The New Testament: A Seminar Working Model, Second rev. ed. (Fort Worth: Scripta Publishing Inc., 1991), p.67. Used by permission.

 

[michelle]

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I can tell you that after several years of listening to preachers with confusing theologies I began to stop reading the Bible stopped witnessing and told God I wanted answers. I knew God existed but was so mixed up. The more I read the Bible the more unanswered questions I had. But when I had Dr. Lorin Cranford in seminary the confusion began to unravel. Finally I had reasons for my faith and began to lead more people to Christ than ever before. I had listened to those men who said they believed the bible and told me what to believe. But the problem came when I asked the tough questions and they had no answers. The preachers I asked didn't have answers. But Dr. Cranford did and it changed my life.
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First I would say that it is wonderful what our Lord Jesus Christ has done in your life, and that he used you to bring others to Him. We most definately have a merciful, gracious, and lovingkind, Lord!

What I do not understand, is why you went and listened to other "men", and being confused and then demanded God for answers? Why did you not just go before HIS throne with humbleness and repentance, and ask for his help in understanding? Why was your reliance upon other men? And whoever Dr. Cranton is not the Lord Almighty, and he is also not your Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, to who is the ONLY one who will give you the truth.

I have read the other side of this issue also. Not in great length, although I have honestly tried. I cannnot get past the feeling in my gut, that what I am reading is NOT THE TRUTH and full of LIES and subtle deceptions. My husband bought me a little book by John Ankerberg "The Facts On the King James Only Debate". I felt literally sick to my stomach, and could not continue reading it any further. He plainly lays out many scripture verses explaining to the reader that the scriptures are the very words of God that cannot be broken. However, shortly thereafter is when the subtle lie comes in, and I stopped reading it altogether. He said that "God Himself inspired and wanted to be written down for posterity". Then he gives the lie, telling us "Even the degree of variation between the TWO MANUSCRIPTS that differ the most of the 5300 we posess "would not fundamentally alter the message of the Scriptures." Then further he states: "In the small area where word differences among copyists do exist, textual critics of the Bible ATTEMPT TO DETERMINE the MOST PROBABLE ORIGIONAL READING." The only purpose of this book, was to EXCUSE AWAY OBVIOUS ERRORS evident in the modern versions. This man is standing for errors that have been done to God's Holy words, instead of doing what a good servant in Christ would do - warn against them. It is obvious and apparent that the person of Jesus Christ as Lord, Saviour, and God is attacked subtlely in the modern versions. Yet, these people are excusing things away that they, as blood bought christians should not be doing, and ultimately are decieveing those who wouldn't or don't know any better.

He then goes on further to explain the differences between the thoughts of those who believe the KJB is the only Bible. Then he makes a claim, out of the blue, and unsubstantiated that the KJVO has destroyed many churches. This is ABSOLUTELY not true!The divisiveness that he claims is caused by the KJO people is actually caused by the PROBLEMS in the modern versions KJO people have EXPOSED and rightly REJECT THEM. It is the fault of those who stand for the mv's for not SEPARATING themselves from errors, and because KJO'S WILL NOT COMPROMISE WITH ERROR concerning the precious words of our Lord Jesus Christ. The division is being caused by the ERRORS EVIDENT in the modern versions, and those who will not SEPARATE FROM ERROR. THIS IS WHAT CAUSES THE DIVISION. Those who know and love the word of God will know, and not tolerate anything that would or has CORRUPTED THE TRUTH IN GOD'S WORDS. For people to tell me, that it is okay that the modern versions have WEAKENED THE DOCTRINES OF THE TRUTH OF JESUS CHRIST, because "no fundamental doctrine has been lost" is repugnant to me. Then to make it worse, now these same people would have us to believe that these things were "added" in the KJB somewhere along the line. This is just unacceptable thinking for christians and not at all the truth.

I judge this issue by what the Lord has said concerning his words and in his words with the conviction upon my heart. If one desires to follow what the wisdom of the world is telling you, go right ahead. But remember, Jesus said, if the blind lead the blind, they both fall into the ditch.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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Scripture is always past tense. They were recorded many years preceding us. They were never written to us personally. So scripture must be interpreted in past tense. Only its application can be present tense.
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Now I understand clearly, why you do not understand this issue in truth. You are believing a lie.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[RaptureReady]

Originally posted by gb93433:
Scripture is always past tense. They were recorded many years preceding us. They were never written to us personally. So scripture must be interpreted in past tense. Only its application can be present tense.

What? Who told you this lie?

 

[gb93433]

Michelle:

I would have to disagree with you concerning the KJVO's. Where I live they are so busy with their holy huddle and bashing others that they are not winning people to Christ. When confronted with evangelism they are disobedient slaves to their theology. The area I live in, only about ten percent of the people at best even go to church.

It has been my experience that many claim to believe the Bible but do not live it out. When they must stand alone for Christ they do not. They in fact are no better than the liberals. They are theological conservatives but practical atheists. I am convinced that the majority of people sitting in most churches are really liberals or atheists in practice. For one example if they are not making disciples they are living just as Satan would want them to live–doing nothing.

James 1:22, “But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. “ Most people are deluded because they are not making disciples as Jesus commanded.

My neighbor is a family lawyer and does divorces, etc. Most of his Christian clients are from a particular fundamental Bible believing church. That church promotes the idea that believing the Bible is enough. The demons believe and shudder. The key is obedience not just claiming to believe the Bible.

You asked about why I had such trouble. I was a new believer. I had many questions as I read. As I read and asked questions I found contradictory answers. Finally they had to admit they really didn't know. Their key was the filter of dispensationalism they used. They forgot about the historical context. It was a great church in many ways. They studied the Bible and shared their faith. But they did not reach a person like me very well. My approach to almost everything has been an intellectual approach. So I reach those kind of people. Those kind of people wants intellectual answers before they will believe.

As I have studied both sides of the issue I see the KJV folks as being ignorant and ill prepared. In the years I pastored I saw few KJVO that shared their faith much. If I look at the fruit of their lives it is almost zero.

My Bible says in Hebrews 13:7, “ Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.”

In the end we can spend our time arguing about this issue and will leave this world having affected nobody. I see no case where Jesus ever made theses issues of any importance. The only time I will discuss them is if the person is willing to study. Otherwise I don't. To give you a good example a non-believer showed up at one of the studies I led and he has a NWT. I said nothing but someone else did and he never returned. That person told him the Bible he has was no good. It was the only Bible he had. The group appeared to be an elitist group while at the same time putting him down. I was glad that he was there. I had gotten to know him over time and invited him. All that was gained over Satan used another foolish person to take it away in an instant.

When I first heard about textual criticism I was shocked and felt the same as you did. But as I hung in there and studied the material myself I began to believe that we have the best Bible we have ever had. We do know for a fact that many manuscripts have added words and phrases. It is the job of the textual critic to take a look at the manuscripts to determine which is the best text.

If one looks at the small number of manuscripts when the KJV was translated and compares it to the over 5000 available today there is no comparison. I am convinced through the studying I have done that had they had the 5000 available them they would have the same text we have today.

There is theological bias in every translation, the KJV included. If you know Anglican theology and compare it to the original languages there is their theology present. If you read the book I told you about you will get a much better understanding then we can possibly give you on the BB.

If you followed me around for one day you would never say, "Now I understand clearly, why you do not understand this issue in truth. You are believing a lie." Not one non-believer or believer would ever say that to me or about me. Now the KJVO's might, but they never disagree with my life. A few years ago a leader from a Christian cult came to me and started asking me about what I believed. He joined some other sin a Bible study. He was KJVO plus. But over time he began to come around and learn to love people. I could not believe how far he had gotten off the path. There we over 100 people in that group. It was in existence for about 15 years. Finally the group began to fall apart. They did evangelism by condemnation and yelling at people. The people thought they were doing the right thing. That group openly proclaimed self righteousness.

The final point is that when a person looks at many manuscripts they must determine which is the correct text. That is what the textual critics do. Of course I expect that to seem foreign to you. But our Bible did not come to use in this present day and age with all of the words in later manuscripts the same as the earlier manuscripts. Your KJV is a result of leaving out and adding in certain words because not every was and is alike. It's not a matter of faith in God. One to two percent in the congregations of the early church could even read. But they still knew God. They still pleased Him.

This issue is not knowing God or pleasing him but about having the correct text.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by RaptureReady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gb93433:
Scripture is always past tense. They were recorded many years preceding us. They were never written to us personally. So scripture must be interpreted in past tense. Only its application can be present tense.

What? Who told you this lie? </font>[/QUOTE]The scriptures were sure not written on August 2, 2004! So when you read the scripture you must interpret it on the basis of when it was written. For example know of anyone who uses the phrase, "Bowels of mercy" today.

 

[michelle]

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If you really want to find out the truth be like a judge and hear both sides them make the decision.
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I can only judge things by what God has said, not what I think outside of what God has said.

Isaiah 33

22. For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king; he will save us.

Ezekiel 7

3. Now is the end come upon thee, and I will send mine anger upon thee, and will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense upon thee all thine abominations.

Ezekiel 44

23. And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24. And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.


Micah 4

1. But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
3. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

John 7

24. Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Hebrews 12

22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26. Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29. For our God is a consuming fire.


Hebrews 4

11. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Amen and amen to all those verse - but how do they judge the KJV as the only version?

 

[michelle]

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The key is obedience not just claiming to believe the Bible.
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This is also what I believe. But now, what or who is it that we are to obey? And what is it that we are to do? And from where is it that we know what to obey, and what we are to do?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

From the Bible - the Word of God.

 

[michelle]

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My approach to almost everything has been an intellectual approach

...

As I have studied both sides of the issue I see
the KJV folks as being ignorant and ill prepared. In the years I pastored I saw few KJVO that shared their faith much. If I look at the fruit of their lives it is almost zero.

My Bible says in Hebrews 13:7, “ Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.”

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First of all, you have made a judgement based upon appearance, to which we are commanded to judge righteously and not by appearance. Secondly the Lord tells us very clearly how it is that we are to be, and how we can judge or know the fruit of another, and it is not intellectually, but with faith and the fruits of the Holy Spirit (Gal.5:18-26). Nowhere in scripture does it tell us this is a requirement (using your own mind). In fact, we are instructed to have the mind of Christ (1 Cor.2). Yet, you judge others because they do not approach this in the same manner, or seem "ignorant" to you. We are to approach all matters with the words of God, and let God's words do the judging, and then be obediant to what the Lord commands. Yes, we are told by the Lord that we shall know them by their fruits. But to be quite honest with you, I can say just the same of the fruits that the modern versions are bearing. There is no doubt, that on both sides of this issue, you are going to find the same type of people, not fruit bearing. However, do not let your own mind and judgements bias you against the truth (Matt.7:7).


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

However, do not let your own mind and judgements bias you against the truth (Matt.7:7).

Exactamundo!

 

[michelle]

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When I first heard about textual criticism I was shocked and felt the same as you did. But as I hung in there and studied the material myself I began to believe that we have the best Bible we have ever had. We do know for a fact that many manuscripts have added words and phrases. It is the job of the textual critic to take a look at the manuscripts to determine which is the best text.
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You do not have any facts, because you rely upon facts that are not true. Why do I say this? Because these supposed facts are not what the history of Bible believing churches have had. They are contrary and opposite to it. You are believing the lies of textual scholars, and then on top of it, trusting in thier judgement to render what they have judged to be in error, and to what "they think" is correct. The churches have said otherwise, and it is in the churches where God's words are found. Not some textual critic who thinks he knows.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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But our Bible did not come to use in this present day and age with all of the words in later manuscripts the same as the earlier manuscripts. Your KJV is a result of leaving out and adding in certain words because not every was and is alike. It's not a matter of faith in God. One to two percent in the congregations of the early church could even read. But they still knew God. They still pleased Him.

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This is a matter of faith in God and faith in what He has said in HIS words about HIS words. You must believe the truth is a lie (Romans 1), in order to justify what has been done to God's words, and to which is FOREIGN to what the churches believed, lived, taught, kept and loved in their hearts, and to which bore great fruits. You can go ahead and believe the lies of the textual critics, and have no final authority in the end, but them. I will not believe the lies of men (2 Cor.2:17), but in Jesus Christ our Lord and what he reveals to me in his words. I will be an obediant doer of his word, and touch not the unclean thing.
(2 Cor.6, Gal.1).

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

michelle said:

I will not believe the lies of men (2 Cor.2:17), but in Jesus Christ our Lord and what he reveals to me in his words. I will be an obediant doer of his word, and touch not the unclean thing.
(2 Cor.6, Gal.1).

Exactamundo sister michelle!

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Surely you would violate the board rules and call a Bible version an unlcean thing. That is why I can agree with you in the previous post.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by michelle:

First of all, you have made a judgement based upon appearance, to which we are commanded to judge righteously and not by appearance.

"To judge righteously" requires that we judge what we learn from our senses by a standard. Appearance is not always reality however it is a better place to start than the pre-determined biases that KJVO's operate from.

Secondly the Lord tells us very clearly how it is that we are to be, and how we can judge or know the fruit of another, and it is not intellectually, but with faith and the fruits of the Holy Spirit (Gal.5:18-26). Nowhere in scripture does it tell us this is a requirement (using your own mind).

Not so. 2 Peter 1 includes knowledge as one aspect of spiritual maturity. Wisdom is a continuing theme throughout scripture. Wisdom is not based on feelings- in fact, the wisest people set aside their own biases and judge according to the evidence.

In fact, we are instructed to have the mind of Christ (1 Cor.2). Yet, you judge others because they do not approach this in the same manner, or seem "ignorant" to you.

It is not indicative of the mind of Christ to dogmatically assert the traditions of men on top of the spirit of God's Word. This is exactly what KJVOnlyism does.

We are to approach all matters with the words of God, and let God's words do the judging, and then be obediant to what the Lord commands. Yes, we are told by the Lord that we shall know them by their fruits.

So you are qualified to judge by appearances? How do you know the fruit if it isn't by appearances? Are you saying that your personal feelings on one matter or another should be authoritative?

As far as letting God's Word be the judge, why don't you? God's Word says nothing about the KJV being God's words. It specifically qualifies those who were chosen to receive divine inspiration. When God GAVE His Word, it was not the KJV nor was it in English. Why must you have a physical image (particular words on a page) before you are willing to believe God and His Word. The KJV has become every bit as much an icon as crucifixes are to the Catholics.

But to be quite honest with you, I can say just the same of the fruits that the modern versions are bearing.

If fruit bearing is your criterion, shouldn't you check out how many people are being saved and growing in the Lord using MV's?

I separated from a pastor once over this issue. Even being ardent KJVO's, both he and his wife acknowledge that the gospel was presented from the NIV when they got saved.

The fact is that there have been many multitudes saved and sanctified using MV's only.

However, do not let your own mind and judgements bias you against the truth (Matt.7:7).

That is a remarkable statement for you to make Michelle since all of your "proofs" spring from the same source- your own unsubstantiated pre-suppositions.

 

[HankD]

You do not have any facts, because you rely upon facts that are not true. Why do I say this? Because these supposed facts are not what the history of Bible believing churches have had. They are contrary and opposite to it. You are believing the lies of textual scholars, and then on top of it, trusting in thier judgement to render what they have judged to be in error, and to what "they think" is correct. The churches have said otherwise, and it is in the churches where God's words are found. Not some textual critic who thinks he knows.

All of the men who worked on the AV1611 translation were scholars and all were textual critics doing what scholars and textual critics have done from time immemorial, comparing and revising former works.
By their own admission:

THE HOLY BIBLE, Conteyning the Old Testament, and the New: Newly Translated out of the Originall tongues: & with the former Translations diligently compared and revised, by his Majesties Special Commandment. Appointed to be read in Churches. Imprinted at London by Robert Barker, Printer to the Kings most Excellent Majestie. ANNO DOM. 1611.

In 1613, they launched out on another work of re-comparing the manuscripts of "the Originall tongues" and revising their former works.

HankD

 

[michelle]

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quote:
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Originally posted by RaptureReady:

quote:
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Originally posted by gb93433:
Scripture is always past tense. They were recorded many years preceding us. They were never written to us personally. So scripture must be interpreted in past tense. Only its application can be present tense.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What? Who told you this lie?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The scriptures were sure not written on August 2, 2004! So when you read the scripture you must interpret it on the basis of when it was written. For example know of anyone who uses the phrase, "Bowels of mercy" today.

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Nobody said they were written today. The scriptures were written then for all who are the Lord's people. Therefore, Scriptures are meant, and should be read by the Lord's people as they were written to us personally. I have a personal Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who speaks to me, through his words (John 10,16), that are his words for me. The comment was made that "they were never written for us personally". This is not true - Matt 22:29, Luke 24, John 5:39, Acts 17:11, 18:28, Romans 15:4, 16:25-27, 2 Tim.3, 2 Peter 3).

By the way, we should let the Holy Spirit of Truth interperet for us, as the Holy Spirit is our teacher. John 16


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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Did He guide them to put this counterfeit Scripture between the covers of a book which they labeled The Holy Bible? If so Why?

HankD
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And as this has been discussed and explained to you all many times before, the Apocrypha was never part of the cannon of scripture. And my Bible today does not contain the Apocrypha. So it is irrelevant to this issue. What is relevant to this issue, are the corrupt texts and methods used, to which the modern versions stem from. If you would like to talk about the Apocrypha being bad, why not make this more serious issue of the texts and methodes a matter of importance and focus, instead of focussing your attention on the wrong things, and irrelevant things that do not have anything to do with this issue today?

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle