What is the Gospel?

Frank, what in your opinion is a gift?

 

Have you yet no understanding. The Jews were God's people, a nation called out of God. They were already saved people. Their salvation was spiritual, such as we know that our is when we are born again or saved. They were God's people before Jericho and God's people after Jericho. Had they failed at Jericho, as they failed at Ai, it would have changed nothing. They would have still been God's people. They were still saved. Their salvation was of God. It is God that saves. Their works did nothing. God saved them. They went into that battle--a SAVED PEOPLE!!
DHK

 

Chem:
Just because one faithfully obeys God does not mean he earns salvation. I have posted the scriptures that teach us there are many types of works. They do not earn my salvation. However, gifts must be recived. John 1:12,13. Salvation is received by an obedient active faith. Hebrews 11:6, Romans 16:26 Eph. 2:8,9 Gal. 3:26,27. Gifts may be received or rejected. John 5:39,Acts 2:38-41.
I do not respect false teaching. Psalms 119:104.
Frank

 

[4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. - Romans 4:4-5 KJV

If you described to me a dog but when the animal walks by you call it a cat, that does not turn the dog that you described into a cat, instead the dog stays a dog. Likewise, you can claim that your system of salvation is not based on merit but it will not change the fact that it is. You system of salvation says that we have to be good enough to be saved, it is based on the same principle as the law is.

[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. - Galatians 3:12 KJV

[5] For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
[6] But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
[7] Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
[8] But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. - Romans 10:5-11 KJV

From dictionary.com:

Salvation is not earned by being good enough, it is a free gift, it is received through faith, not faith plus being good enough to deserve it, just faith.

[15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
[17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
[18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
[19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[20] Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
[21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. - Romans 5:15-21 KJV

 

Hi Keith,

I just finished Crossroads and have returned from World Youth Day in Toronto last night.

Check out http://www.torontostar.ca/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Render&c=Gallery&cid=1022185296318

Since I have a short moment online, I thought I would give a small comment on something you wrote back in this thread.

If Paul is telling you that he is not justified by works of the law how can you say that James is telling you that you are justified by works of the law and still not have conflicting scripture?

Catholic theology does not teach that we are saved by performing works of the law (or "ergon nomou"). In fact, Christians are completely dispensed from the works of the law - the Council in Jerusalem attests to this.

Consult http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WORK-LAW.htm

It's the inner renewal of man, who is conformed to the image of the Son that is at once both our justification and our sanctification. This is a gift/grace/charis and a work of the Holy Spirit that enables/empowers man to live the Moral Law, which was given to the Hebrews before the Mosaic law in the life of God's people.

Catholics do not limit God to the role of a divine lawyer. We believe that He's a father, and that we're his sons, who share in the fellowship and life of the Trinity through the only begotten Son. This begins at baptism. Lutherans believe that man is at once justified and a sinner. Catholics believe that this is a paradox that limits salvation to a divine decree. Catholics also believe that Christ saves us not only from hell, but also from sin. Christ came to save us from our sin. This means that he takes away not merely the guilt imputed to us because of our sin but also the sin itself. Faith enables man to reach into the life of the Trinity and receive the righteousness of God. This righteousness restores the imago Dei in man, healing and restoring man to a state above his preternatural condition.

God loves us too much to simply allow us to remain in our filth. He doesn't cover us with clean clothes. He bathes us.

God bless,

Carson

[ July 30, 2002, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

A total oontradiction. Baptism is a work of man, not of God. In Catholic theology your renewal, justification, sanctification, etc. all begins at baptism--a work of man. Thus you have a salvation of works, of man, not of God.
DHK

 

Keith,

And Catholics refer to this stepping as "Purgatory".

DHK,

Was it not Luther who cried "Sola Fide"? I suppose Luther holds to a works-righteousness Gospel too?

God bless,

Carson

 

Not Luther, but Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said:

Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation is by faith alone, not of works.
DHK

 

DHK,

You failed to answer my question(s).

Faith is also a work. One must "believe". Paul seems to be contradicting himself. Unless, of course, Paul is addressing the Judaizers who had a specific theology that we should take into the context of our Biblical interpretation.

God bless,

Carson

 

Paul makes a distinction between being saved by works and saved by faith. The Law was a do the works and live, don't do them and die system and Paul makes it clear that faith is not the same as this system of works.

[10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[14] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. - Galatians 3:10-14 KJV

 

Paul speaks of "works of the law" or "ergon nomou"

Consult http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WORK-LAW.htm to learn what this means.

Hint: Paul is referring to something particular to Jewish Israelites apart from the Ethne in order to answer nationalistic Jewish Christians.

God bless,

Carson

[ July 31, 2002, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

God's Law, whether you take the 613 Mosaic laws, just the 10 commandments or any other laws that you want to credit God as having made is simply a list of dos and don'ts. If you do the dos and don't do the don'ts, you live, if not you die. That was the promise even in the garden when there was only 1 single command. Paul makes a distinction between faith and the dos and don'ts system.

[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. -Galatians 3:12 KJV

 

The ergon nomou or "works of Torah" are not the moral law that precedes the Mosaic laws that separated the clean from the unclean.

Love of God is necessary unto salvation. That is an obvious concern. This "work" is presented in the moral law, not the ergon nomou which Paul adamently opposes to the virtue of faith. We have faith precisely so that we're empowered to be sanctified, to live the moral law.

But our living the moral law isn't what saves us. Living the moral law is our salvation in action, our justification being carried out. Our salvation is granted because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross and because we have faith in what he did on the cross. This brings about our personal sanctification, and the end of sanctification is eternal life.

Romans 6:22

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.


I rejoice when I read Paul, the Catholic champion of grace. The Protestant would say, "sanctification is a proof of justification". The Catholic would say, "sanctification is our justification, which results in eternal life" in accordance with Saint Paul.

God bless,

Carson

[ July 31, 2002, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]