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What is the Gospel?

Chemnitz

New Member
Please provide the text where I said one can earn his way into heaven? I did not say that and do not teach it because the Bible does not teach it.
Every post where you claimed works justify before God.

I am getting it right, you are the one refusing to read the Bible for what it says because you still think you can earn God's good graces. I do believe in an active faith, but I am not fool enough to think my inadequate works can earn God's good graces (Isa 64:6). You have only posted verses that prove your inability to read scripture for what it says. I mean come on saying that eph 2:9 teaches works of merit. Get real.

It is childish to poison the waters or build a straw man. Get it right please!
So why do you keep building a straw man?
I have no respect for your "scholarship" so before I say something I am going to regret and get myself in trouble this is my final post on the thread. You have already proven that you do not understand when James says You he means the reader not God and that is why I can safely say that works only justify before man. Does this justification amount to anything outside of a physical manifestation of our love for what God did for free, no. Because only faith which is God's work justifies before God.

Time and time again you go look at me I can prooftext. Whoopty doo. Prooftexting does not equate to understanding. Yet when I do cite verses you don't even care to look at them and address them. So I don't even see any reason to respond to you anymore.

For more information on the Two kinds of Righteousness see this link. http://www.lcms.org/bookofconcord/augsburgdefense/4_justification.asp

[ July 20, 2002, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Frank:
DHK:
You asserted I read things into the scriptures. Please provide for me the scripture that says the examples used were saved by faith ALONE?

Where in the text does it say it was a physical deliverance before they compassed the walls seven times? Where? Book chapter and verse,please.
Have you yet no understanding. The Jews were God's people, a nation called out of God. They were already saved people. Their salvation was spiritual, such as we know that our is when we are born again or saved. They were God's people before Jericho and God's people after Jericho. Had they failed at Jericho, as they failed at Ai, it would have changed nothing. They would have still been God's people. They were still saved. Their salvation was of God. It is God that saves. Their works did nothing. God saved them. They went into that battle--a SAVED PEOPLE!!
DHK
 

Frank

New Member
Chem:
Just because one faithfully obeys God does not mean he earns salvation. I have posted the scriptures that teach us there are many types of works. They do not earn my salvation. However, gifts must be recived. John 1:12,13. Salvation is received by an obedient active faith. Hebrews 11:6, Romans 16:26 Eph. 2:8,9 Gal. 3:26,27. Gifts may be received or rejected. John 5:39,Acts 2:38-41.
I do not respect false teaching. Psalms 119:104.
Frank
 

Dualhunter

New Member
Originally posted by Frank:
Chem:
Just because one faithfully obeys God does not mean he earns salvation. I have posted the scriptures that teach us there are many types of works. They do not earn my salvation. However, gifts must be recived. John 1:12,13. Salvation is received by an obedient active faith. Hebrews 11:6, Romans 16:26 Eph. 2:8,9 Gal. 3:26,27. Gifts may be received or rejected. John 5:39,Acts 2:38-41.
I do not respect false teaching. Psalms 119:104.
Frank
[4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. - Romans 4:4-5 KJV

If you described to me a dog but when the animal walks by you call it a cat, that does not turn the dog that you described into a cat, instead the dog stays a dog. Likewise, you can claim that your system of salvation is not based on merit but it will not change the fact that it is. You system of salvation says that we have to be good enough to be saved, it is based on the same principle as the law is.

[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. - Galatians 3:12 KJV

[5] For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
[6] But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
[7] Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
[8] But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. - Romans 10:5-11 KJV

From dictionary.com:

v. mer·it·ed, mer·it·ing, mer·its
v. tr.
To earn; deserve. See Synonyms at earn1.

v. intr.
To be worthy or deserving: Pupils are rewarded or corrected, as they merit.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English, from Old French merite, reward or punishment, from Latin meritum, from neuter past participle of merre, to deserve. See (s)mer-2 in Indo-European Roots.]
Salvation is not earned by being good enough, it is a free gift, it is received through faith, not faith plus being good enough to deserve it, just faith.

[15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
[17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
[18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
[19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[20] Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
[21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. - Romans 5:15-21 KJV
 

Carson Weber

<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Hi Keith,

I just finished Crossroads and have returned from World Youth Day in Toronto last night.

Check out http://www.torontostar.ca/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Render&c=Gallery&cid=1022185296318

Since I have a short moment online, I thought I would give a small comment on something you wrote back in this thread.

If Paul is telling you that he is not justified by works of the law how can you say that James is telling you that you are justified by works of the law and still not have conflicting scripture?


Catholic theology does not teach that we are saved by performing works of the law (or "ergon nomou"). In fact, Christians are completely dispensed from the works of the law - the Council in Jerusalem attests to this.

Consult http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WORK-LAW.htm

It's the inner renewal of man, who is conformed to the image of the Son that is at once both our justification and our sanctification. This is a gift/grace/charis and a work of the Holy Spirit that enables/empowers man to live the Moral Law, which was given to the Hebrews before the Mosaic law in the life of God's people.

Catholics do not limit God to the role of a divine lawyer. We believe that He's a father, and that we're his sons, who share in the fellowship and life of the Trinity through the only begotten Son. This begins at baptism. Lutherans believe that man is at once justified and a sinner. Catholics believe that this is a paradox that limits salvation to a divine decree. Catholics also believe that Christ saves us not only from hell, but also from sin. Christ came to save us from our sin. This means that he takes away not merely the guilt imputed to us because of our sin but also the sin itself. Faith enables man to reach into the life of the Trinity and receive the righteousness of God. This righteousness restores the imago Dei in man, healing and restoring man to a state above his preternatural condition.

God loves us too much to simply allow us to remain in our filth. He doesn't cover us with clean clothes. He bathes us.

God bless,

Carson

[ July 30, 2002, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Carson Weber:

It's the inner renewal of man, who is conformed to the image of the Son that is at once both our justification and our sanctification. This is a gift/grace/charis and a work of the Holy Spirit that enables/empowers man to live the Moral Law, which was given to the Hebrews before the Mosaic law in the life of God's people.

Catholics do not limit God to the role of a divine lawyer. We believe that He's a father, and that we're his sons, who share in the fellowship and life of the Trinity through the only begotten Son. This begins at baptism.
A total oontradiction. Baptism is a work of man, not of God. In Catholic theology your renewal, justification, sanctification, etc. all begins at baptism--a work of man. Thus you have a salvation of works, of man, not of God.
DHK
 

Chemnitz

New Member
A total oontradiction. Baptism is a work of man, not of God. In Catholic theology your renewal, justification, sanctification, etc. all begins at baptism--a work of man. Thus you have a salvation of works, of man, not of God.
DHK
I disagree anything that has the promises attached to it like baptism can not be a work of man. Rm 6, 1 Pt 3. Yes a man does the pouring/dunking but he is only the tool for there is power in the Word of God. If it were just water then it would be a work of man, but because it is water and the Word it is a work of God.
 

Chemnitz

New Member
Carson,

You haven't quite got the gist of Lutheran beliefs, you came up a little short. Since I have a chance to enlighten you I won't hold it against you. ;) The belief simul est sanctus et peccator is a description of our condition here on earth. We believe and teach that on being called home the old adam is finally completely slain. If we were completely changed here on earth then no Christian would ever sin but as remarked in Romans 7:15-20 our life on earth is a continual battle between the new and old adams. As a prof once described we Christians a have one foot in the world and one foot through the doors of heaven. Upon death a believer finally puts both feet through the door leaving behind the sinful self at last.

[ July 30, 2002, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]
 

Carson Weber

<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Keith,

And Catholics refer to this stepping as "Purgatory".


DHK,

Was it not Luther who cried "Sola Fide"? I suppose Luther holds to a works-righteousness Gospel too?

God bless,

Carson
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Carson Weber:

Was it not Luther who cried "Sola Fide"? I suppose Luther holds to a works-righteousness Gospel too?
Not Luther, but Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said:

Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation is by faith alone, not of works.
DHK
 

Carson Weber

<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
DHK,

You failed to answer my question(s).

Faith is also a work. One must "believe". Paul seems to be contradicting himself. Unless, of course, Paul is addressing the Judaizers who had a specific theology that we should take into the context of our Biblical interpretation.

God bless,

Carson
 

Dualhunter

New Member
Originally posted by Carson Weber:
DHK,

You failed to answer my question(s).

Faith is also a work. One must "believe". Paul seems to be contradicting himself. Unless, of course, Paul is addressing the Judaizers who had a specific theology that we should take into the context of our Biblical interpretation.

God bless,

Carson
Paul makes a distinction between being saved by works and saved by faith. The Law was a do the works and live, don't do them and die system and Paul makes it clear that faith is not the same as this system of works.

[10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[14] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. - Galatians 3:10-14 KJV
 

Carson Weber

<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Paul speaks of "works of the law" or "ergon nomou"

Consult http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WORK-LAW.htm to learn what this means.

Hint: Paul is referring to something particular to Jewish Israelites apart from the Ethne in order to answer nationalistic Jewish Christians.

God bless,

Carson

[ July 31, 2002, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
 

Dualhunter

New Member
Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Paul speaks of "works of the law" or "ergon nomou"

Consult http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WORK-LAW.htm to learn what this means.

God bless,

Carson
God's Law, whether you take the 613 Mosaic laws, just the 10 commandments or any other laws that you want to credit God as having made is simply a list of dos and don'ts. If you do the dos and don't do the don'ts, you live, if not you die. That was the promise even in the garden when there was only 1 single command. Paul makes a distinction between faith and the dos and don'ts system.

[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. -Galatians 3:12 KJV
 

Carson Weber

<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
The ergon nomou or "works of Torah" are not the moral law that precedes the Mosaic laws that separated the clean from the unclean.

Love of God is necessary unto salvation. That is an obvious concern. This "work" is presented in the moral law, not the ergon nomou which Paul adamently opposes to the virtue of faith. We have faith precisely so that we're empowered to be sanctified, to live the moral law.

But our living the moral law isn't what saves us. Living the moral law is our salvation in action, our justification being carried out. Our salvation is granted because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross and because we have faith in what he did on the cross. This brings about our personal sanctification, and the end of sanctification is eternal life.

Romans 6:22

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.


I rejoice when I read Paul, the Catholic champion of grace. The Protestant would say, "sanctification is a proof of justification". The Catholic would say, "sanctification is our justification, which results in eternal life" in accordance with Saint Paul.

God bless,

Carson

[ July 31, 2002, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Dualhunter:
God's Law, whether you take the 613 Mosaic laws, just the 10 commandments or any other laws that you want to credit God as having made is simply a list of dos and don'ts. If you do the dos and don't do the don'ts, you live, if not you die. That was the promise even in the garden when there was only 1 single command. Paul makes a distinction between faith and the dos and don'ts system.

[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. -Galatians 3:12 KJV
Let's take this verse and elaborate on it:

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Verse 10 teaches that if you do not keep everything in the law, everything that is mentioned in the above paragraph quoted, every day of your life without exception, then you are cursed. One sin, one lie, one lustful thought, just one sin, condemns you--it brings you under the curse. You must continue in ALL things which are written in the law to do them.

Verse 11: the teaching is plain. The law does not justify. The just shall live by faith. A man is justified by faith and by faith alone. There is no work that can justify a man.

Verse 12 teaches that the law is not of faith. The system of works/law are completely different than that of faith. Faith in this sense is not a work. Jesus says it is the only work that man can do, to differentiate it from all other works.

Verse 13: Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law. The sacrifice of Christ fulfilled the law. Man, by putting his faith in the sacrifice of Christ, finds redemption, and freedom from the curse of the law.

Rom.8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
DHK

[ July 31, 2002, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]
 
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