What is the Gospel?

[charles]

Originally posted by Frank:
Charles:
You said God protects his son's obedience and seperates ours from his.Could you please give me the word of God for this position. It seems the Bible says we are to follow his example.( Hebrews 5:8,9, I Pet. 2:21). God connects our obedience with spiritual blessings.( II Pet. 1:3, Eph. 1:3). All spiritual blessings are in Christ. It requires obedience to get into Christ.( Gal. 3 26,27). It will require obedience to get into the Kingdom of Heaven.( Mat. 7:21 Lk. 6:46,cf. Jn. 5:39,40).God requires faithful obedience of all people.
Noah was saved by grace through faithful obedience. ( Gen. 6:22). Abraham was justified by faithful obedience. ( Hebrew 11:17, James 2:21). God requires the same of all nations ,today.( Romans 16:26). I know of no biblical example of any man being spiritually blessed without faithful obedience to the word of God. If you know one, please send it to me. I would like to study the matter some more.
Frank

Frank,
you are absolutely right.I should have made myself clear.
I think Titus3:5 speaks more clearly of what I had in mind."Not by works of righteousness which we have done"

God is proud of his son and makes it clear that his obedience is the power for salvation and we had better not claim that we can accomplish it by our faith(obedience) or boast about it either.

But,since he is the CEO and head of his church,we better obey what he says to be in it.

I quess God is simply saying in Eph2:8 and Titus3:5 that we need to take pride in the cross and not something we have obeyed.But like you say,it takes both.Oh well,just my thoughts anyway.
God bless,Charles

 

[charles]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Baptism is no more a part of the gospel...

I respectfully disagree, based on the fact that it must be preached in order to preach Jesus and that Peter preached it during his first gospel sermon, but as long as you understand that it is a necessary response to the gospel, I don't see any reason for arguing about it.

I love that old song Rock of Ages:

"Rock of Ages, cleft for me, Let me hide myself in Thee; Let the water and the blood, From Thy wounded side which flowed, Be of sin the double cure, Save from wrath and make me pure."

Even though the song recognizes the fact that baptism "water...from Thy wounded side...Save from wrath..." is a necessary response to the gospel, it also shows that we cannot boast:

"Could my tears forever flow, could my zeal no languor know, these for sin cannot atone; Thou must save and Thou alone; In my hand no price I bring, simply to Thy cross I cling."</font>[/QUOTE]Hey Sola,

That was beautiful.You remind me of Barnabus.
God bless,Charles

P.S.Peter preached the pure gospel in Acts2 verses 14-36 and ended by declaring Jesus as Lord.....when someone responded to the gospel message,he preached another sermon on what we need to do.Notice the 2 sermons were seperated.The first was the gospel message with no baptism.The second was how we should respond to the gospel message.Oh well,what difference does it make.

Thanks for the reply,Charles

 

[Frank]

Dual:
Paul was a condemned sinner when he persecuted the church. ( Acts 8:1-3). His sins were not remitted until he obeyed the words of the preacher Ananias. The preacher sent by God to him told him what he must do to become a Christian, ( (Acts 9:6;22:16). Paul was not blessed until he obeyed. If he was Paul did not know it because he was praying for the answer to his question he asked on the road to Damascus. The preacher did not know it because he told Paul what he must do. God did not know it because he sent the preacher to tell him what to do. The text of Acts 9 and 22 teach that obedience is essential to blessings and forgiveness.
Frank

 

[Dualhunter]

2:8 For by grace you are saved19 through faith,20 and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 2:9 it is not of works, so that no one can boast.21 - Ephesians 2:8-9 NET

Salvation is by grace through faith, other blessings might depend on obedience but salvation is a free gift.

22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say: “Come!” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wants it take the water of life free of charge. - Revelation 22:17 NET

Forgiveness comes only with the shedding of blood, not through works.

9:22 Indeed according to the law almost everything was purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. - Hebrews 9:22 NET

It is through Christ's resurrection that we are born again not be works of merrit.

1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1:4 that is,8 into9 an inheritance imperishable, undefiled, and unfading. It is reserved in heaven for you, - 1 Peter 1:3 NET

When Paul and Silas' guard asked what he must do to be saved, their reply did not mention works, only belief in Christ.

16:30 Then he brought them outside107 and asked, “Sirs, what must108 I do to be saved?” 16:31 They replied,109 “Believe110 in the Lord Jesus111 and you will be saved, you and your household.” - Acts 16:30-31 NET

Again, salvation is through faith in Christ not works of righteousness.

10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is by the law: “The one who does these things will live by them.”5 10:6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart,6 ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”7 (that is, to bring Christ down) 10:7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?”8 (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”9 (that is, the word of faith that we preach), 10:9 because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord10 and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10:10 For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness11 and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation.12 10:11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”13 - Romans 10:5-11 NET

Yet again, the Bible says that salvation is by grace and forgiveness is through the blood of Christ.

1:7 In him18 we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace - Ephesians 1:7 NET

And finally, this is what Paul had to say about the gospel:

15:1 Now I want to make clear for you,1 brothers and sisters,2 the gospel that I preached to you, that you received and on which you stand, 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 15:3 For I passed on to you as of first importance3 what I also received—that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 15:4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised4 on the third day according to the scriptures, 15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters5 at one time, most of whom are still living,6 though some have fallen asleep.7 15:7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 15:8 Last of all, as though to one born at the wrong time,8 he appeared to me also. 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me has not been in vain. In fact, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 15:11 Whether then it was I or they, this is the way we preach and this is the way you believed. - 1 Corinthians 15:1-11 NET

Notice that the crucial core of the Christian faith is that Christ paid the price for our sins and that he arose from the dead according to the scriptures, works such as baptism are not mentioned.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Salvation is by grace through faith, other blessings might depend on obedience but salvation is a free gift.

I want to clear up a common misconception:

When a person says that obedience is necessary to salvation they are NOT saying that we can EARN salvation by obedience or that obedience makes us WORTHY of salvation or that we are PAYING for salvation. They are simply saying what the Bible says in Hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" No matter what YOU say, GOD says that Jesus saves those that obey Him.

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Salvation is by grace through faith, other blessings might depend on obedience but salvation is a free gift.

I want to clear up a common misconception:

When a person says that obedience is necessary to salvation they are NOT saying that we can EARN salvation by obedience or that obedience makes us WORTHY of salvation or that we are PAYING for salvation. They are simply saying what the Bible says in Hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" No matter what YOU say, GOD says that Jesus saves those that obey Him.</font>[/QUOTE]The obedience that is required of us for salvation is not works of righteousness nor baptism, it is to believe in Christ and to love one another:

3:21 Dear friends, if our conscience does not condemn us, we have confidence in the presence of God, 3:22 and73 whatever we ask we receive from him, because74 we keep his commandments and do the things that are pleasing to him. 3:23 Now75 this is his commandment:76 that we believe77 in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he gave78 us the commandment. - 1 John 3:21 NET

 

[Frank]

Sola:
Thanks for clarifying the relationship of obedience to salvation. I have posted many times the different types of works described in the Bible. The real problem is when one says works or acts of obedience they equate them to merit. This is simply a failure to rightly divide the truth. Those scriptures are as follows:
1. Works of Righteousness. Titus 3:5
2. Works of the Old Law. Gal. 2:16
3. Works of the Flesh. Gal. 5:19- 21.
4. Works of God. John 6:28,29.
5. Works of Merit. Eph. 2:8,9.
6. Works of Faith. James 2:21,22.
Frank

 

[charles]

Originally posted by Frank:
Sola:
Thanks for clarifying the relationship of obedience to salvation. I have posted many times the different types of works described in the Bible. The real problem is when one says works or acts of obedience they equate them to merit. This is simply a failure to rightly divide the truth. Those scriptures are as follows:
1. Works of Righteousness. Titus 3:5
2. Works of the Old Law. Gal. 2:16
3. Works of the Flesh. Gal. 5:19- 21.
4. Works of God. John 6:28,29.
5. Works of Merit. Eph. 2:8,9.
6. Works of Faith. James 2:21,22.
Frank

Frank,
I agree,I was going to tell Sola the same thing.Really,aren't we all saying the same thing basically.Baptism is such a stumbling block for unity.It's not a matter of what the bible says but rather a matter of the science of interpretation that we apply to it.



God bless,Charles

 

[Bradleyc]

Two topics here:
1. Christ prayed for unity. (John 17:21). Acts
2:1 says that the "they were all with one accord in one place".
2. While no one can earn salvation, still faith without works is (James 2:26).

 

[charles]

Originally posted by Bradleyc:
Two topics here:
1. Christ prayed for unity. (John 17:21). Acts
2:1 says that the "they were all with one accord in one place".
2. While no one can earn salvation, still faith without works is (James 2:26).

Bradleyo,

I like your mini-posts,they are enlightening but rich in substance.I tend to put too much in one post.

Hey,the gospel is indeed good news but the bible says the good news is that Christ died,was buried and resurrected so that we can have eternal life1Cor15:1-4

It's my thought that baptism doesn't belong to the good news message but does belong to the "what must I do"part.

In other words,salvation(eternal life)is an act of God and God alone.

Baptism is an act of man.Necessary but without saving power.You can't make any more out of it but a free gift.

God bless,Charles

 

[SolaScriptura]

The biggest hinderance to unity is semantics really, just how you say something.

 

[Frank]

Charles:
Baptism is for the remission of sins.( Acts 2:38). The language of the original text makes this the case. Some men deny that partaking of the Lord's Supper is to be performed on the first day of the week. Some use water instead of the fruit of the vine. These postions are simply false teachings. Men can know the truth and it will set them free( John 8:32). This is what Jesus said. If truth is subjective, why preach or teach? We all should eat drink and be merry for we will all die and split hell wide open. I say this because Jesus said we can know the TRUTH and we must know his will John 8:32, Eph.5:17.The truth saves.( James 1:21).
There are many stumbling blocks because all men are simply not disposed to accepting evidence and livng by faith based on the totality of the evidence found in the Bible.( Romans 10:17, Psalms 119:106). Stumbling blocks may be removed, but not the truth of God's word. I agree it is sad
men stumble over truth. However, the truth never changes. Men must conform to it. Have a good one
Frank

 

[Bradleyc]

Thanks for the kind words. I'm not much of a writer. Just a listener and reader.
I do disagree about what you said about baptisim. It is the power to save us (Acts 2:38); (Acts 22:16); and (Romans 6:3-4)

 

[charles]

Originally posted by Frank:
Charles:
Baptism is for the remission of sins.( Acts 2:38). The language of the original text makes this the case. Some men deny that partaking of the Lord's Supper is to be performed on the first day of the week. Some use water instead of the fruit of the vine. These postions are simply false teachings. Men can know the truth and it will set them free( John 8:32). This is what Jesus said. If truth is subjective, why preach or teach? We all should eat drink and be merry for we will all die and split hell wide open. I say this because Jesus said we can know the TRUTH and we must know his will John 8:32, Eph.5:17.The truth saves.( James 1:21).
There are many stumbling blocks because all men are simply not disposed to accepting evidence and livng by faith based on the totality of the evidence found in the Bible.( Romans 10:17, Psalms 119:106). Stumbling blocks may be removed, but not the truth of God's word. I agree it is sad
men stumble over truth. However, the truth never changes. Men must conform to it. Have a good one
Frank

Frank,

If baptism has any power to save,then how much power did it take away from the cross in order to do that.

As far as I know,there is no scripture that will give any power to obedience for salvation.Yes,it gives power to a person in order to receive.But the only cleansing agent for sin is the blood(gospel).

God demands 2 parts in our conversion.(1)that his son was to die on the cross for our sins.
(2)That whosoever wishes to be covered by the grace which his son provided must have acts of obedience of which baptism is one.

Hey,Peter had the right idea in Acts15:11.It's grace,pure and simple.

Don't you think it hurts God when you say that an act of obedience is for the remission of sin.You mentioned about some people taking water for the Lord's supper.If baptism has power to save then maybe we aught to do that.No.....just rambling.

Hey,you are good at what you say but hermeneutics are changing in our congregations of the cOC.I believe all denominations need to fine tune their conversion doctrines.

God bless you Frank,you are a man of God and a man of the word......Charles

 

[SolaScriptura]

Charles,

I didn't see Frank say that the water has any power...and it doesn't. BUT there is saving power in baptism, not in the water but in WHO we are baptized into. People could get baptized into Buddha all day long and not a one of them would be saved, but Christians are baptized into Christ in whom are all blessings (especially salvation).

Don't you think it hurts God when you say that an act of obedience is for the remission of sin[?]

If that's the case, then God must be hurting himself because he said it in Acts 2:38. Compare Mat 26:28 and Acts 2:38. Both contain the phrase "for the remission of sins" in English and the same exact phrase in Greek also, but one speaks of Christ's blood and the other of baptism. Is it a contradiction for the Bible to say that Christ's blood is shed "for the remission of sins" and that we are to "repent & be baptized...for the remission of sins"? No. Obviously baptism puts us into that shed blood, as Romans 6 would indicate - we are baptized into Christ (His body, where His blood is) and His death (where His blood was shed). Baptism remits sins ONLY BECAUSE it is in baptism that we contact Christ's blood. We can't say "I got dunked in water so now I deserve salvation. I'm worthy!" On the otherhand, we can say "I know that I am a child of God and am in Christ" because "ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Gal 3:26-27)

[ July 08, 2002, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

[Frank]

Charles:
I appreciate your kind words. It is rare I am received in this manner.

I must clarify what my affirmation is concerning baptism. I do not believe there is any miraculous power in the water. It is an act of faith that puts us In Christ by his blood.( Gal. 3:26,27,Rev. 1:5, Eph. 5:26, Acts 22:16). The grace that brings salvation is received by faith.( see above). I am sorry I confused you. Again, thanks for your thoughts of kindness.
Frank

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:

I didn't see Frank say that the water has any power...and it doesn't. BUT there is saving power in baptism,

That's one of the biggest contradictions and logical fallacies that I have seen. Water has no saving power, but there is saving power in water (baptism)???????????

Which side of the fence are you on? Actually I already know. The fact is, the only power in the waters of baptism is the power to get you wet. We are saved by faith in His blood. Note that it is faith in His blood, and not "contact" in his blood. We are not cannibalistic. Do not take Mat.26:28 out of its context. Christ is only giving a picture. We are saved by faith, and faith alone. I say faith alone because faith always has an object. The object of my faith is Christ and his sacrifice. The oject of your faith seems to be baptism and obedience. If that is true you cannot possibly be saved for you believe in a works salvation, and works cannot save. "For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves."
DHK

[ July 08, 2002, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[SolaScriptura]

No, that's not a contradiction or a logical fallacy. There is power in baptism, but that power is in Christ whom we are baptized into and not the water itslef. If you can't understand something that simple, then I feel sorry for you!

"And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:"

Have you ever wondered why Peter says "...the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." (Acts 5:32) What obedience is required for the reception of the Holy Ghost? Hmmm...lets see..."Repent, and be baptized...and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38) That's really plain!

[ July 09, 2002, 01:39 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
No, that's not a contradiction or a logical fallacy. There is power in baptism, but that power is in Christ whom we are baptized into and not the water itslef. If you can't understand something that simple, then I feel sorry for you!

No need to feel sorry, but perhaps for yourself. Please look at your own contradiction. "There is power in baptism, but that power is in Christ." I put my faith in Christ and his sacrificial blood. It was not the baptism of Christ that saved me. I think your a bit or maybe a lot confused. There is NO power in baptism, but to get you wet. When I was baptized "into Christ," it was not by a pastor or any other man. That event happened at my salvation two years prior to my baptism. I was baptized into Christ when, by faith alone, I trusted Christ as my Saviour.
DHK

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
No, that's not a contradiction or a logical fallacy. There is power in baptism, but that power is in Christ whom we are baptized into and not the water itslef. If you can't understand something that simple, then I feel sorry for you!

No need to feel sorry, but perhaps for yourself. Please look at your own contradiction. "There is power in baptism, but that power is in Christ." I put my faith in Christ and his sacrificial blood. It was not the baptism of Christ that saved me. I think your a bit or maybe a lot confused. There is NO power in baptism, but to get you wet. When I was baptized "into Christ," it was not by a pastor or any other man. That event happened at my salvation two years prior to my baptism. I was baptized into Christ when, by faith alone, I trusted Christ as my Saviour.
DHK</font>[/QUOTE]Here's your scriptural support, as you said you were not baptized into Christ by a pastor or any man, rather it was by the Holy Spirit when you put your trust in in Christ.

[13] For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. - 1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV

[12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1:12-14 KJV