What is the Gospel?

[Frank]

DHK:
In Numbrers 21:9, the children of Israel were saved by the brazen serpent when they looked upon it. Did the serpent save them becasue they looked upon him? or was it's God's power through the serpent that saved them?
In Exodus 12:7, the children of Israel were saved by lamb's blood on the lintel. Did the blood itself save them or was it the power of God through the blood that saved them?

In Exodus 14:13, Moses parted the Red Sea to save Israel. Was it the parting of the sea and the waters that drown the Egyptians that saved or was it the power of God in using these instruments to save?
Frank

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:
DHK:
In Numbrers 21:9, the children of Israel were saved by the brazen serpent when they looked upon it. Did the serpent save them becasue they looked upon him? or was it's God's power through the serpent that saved them?
In Exodus 12:7, the children of Israel were saved by lamb's blood on the lintel. Did the blood itself save them or was it the power of God through the blood that saved them?

In Exodus 14:13, Moses parted the Red Sea to save Israel. Was it the parting of the sea and the waters that drown the Egyptians that saved or was it the power of God in using these instruments to save?
Frank

Frank,
In each case it was their faith in the God of Israel to save them, that did save them. It was not the act of obedience, per se; it was the faith that they had that by applying the blood to the door posts and the lintel that that they would be saved from death. Faith saves; not obedience.
DHK

 

[charles]

Considering that Abraham and all the old testament greats obeyed God but none of their works were counted as righteous,there must have been something else that God counted them righteous for.Romans3:20 "therefore NNE(yep Abraham too)will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law"

Well,what does the bible say made them righteous?Romans3:28 "for we maintain that a man is justified(he's what)by faith(by what)apart from observing the law.

Romans4:9 "we have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness" Romans4:10 "under what circumstances was it credited?Was it after he was circumcised ,or before?It was not after,but before.

Faith is God's dream.Romans4:21 opens Abraham's heart so that we can see why God credited his faith as righteous."Being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised verse 23...this is why it was credited to him as righteousness.

Verse 23 says "it was credited to him were written ..not for him alone"

24....But for us,to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

It's faith pure and simple.But faith without obedience is pretty much dead.But faith is where the justification sets in (verse 25.)

Just some bible thoughts,everyone seems to be drawing from the word of God.Very good thinkng from everyone.

God bless,Charles

 

[Dualhunter]

Forgiveness of sins is when God, does not require restitution for sin from us. Because God is perfectly just by nature, he requires that all sin be paid for. When Christ died on the cross he paid for all sin. All that is left for us it have that payment credited to us and the Bible tells us that faith is credited as righteousness. By trusting in Christ, not only are our sins paid for in full by Christ’s death but we are considered righteous in God’s eyes because of Christ’s life.

4:3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited4 to him as righteousness.”5 4:4 Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation.6 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous,7 his faith is credited as righteousness. – Romans 4:3-5 NET

 

[Frank]

Dhk:
If the children of Israel had not looked upon the serpent would God have saved them? Numbers 21:9
If the children of Israel had not put blood upon the door post would God have saved them? Exodus 11:7, 23-29.
If the Red Sea had not been parted and the children had not walked through it would God have saved them? Exodus 14: 13-16, I Cor. 10: 1,2.
What does the Bible say in these texts? Examine each case. When did faith save in these texts?
Frank

 

[charles]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
Forgiveness of sins is when God, does not require restitution for sin from us. Because God is perfectly just by nature, he requires that all sin be paid for. When Christ died on the cross he paid for all sin. All that is left for us it have that payment credited to us and the Bible tells us that faith is credited as righteousness. By trusting in Christ, not only are our sins paid for in full by Christ’s death but we are considered righteous in God’s eyes because of Christ’s life.

4:3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited4 to him as righteousness.”5 4:4 Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation.6 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous,7 his faith is credited as righteousness. – Romans 4:3-5 NET

Dualhunter,

Yes,I see where you are coming from.But do you believe we need to obey God in baptism? I agree with you on the faith part but wonder if you would leave off baptism.

Not that it has power to save but as an act of obedience.

Just curious,thanks for your good post.

God bless,Charles

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:

If the children of Israel had not looked upon the serpent would God have saved them? Numbers 21:9
If the children of Israel had not put blood upon the door post would God have saved them? Exodus 11:7, 23-29.
If the Red Sea had not been parted and the children had not walked through it would God have saved them? Exodus 14: 13-16, I Cor. 10: 1,2.
What does the Bible say in these texts? Examine each case. When did faith save in these texts?

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
---Faith is the main, yea the only requirement for salvation, as is stated in verse 15. As they looked to the serpent "in faith," so we look to the Saviour, "in faith."

Heb.11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

Heb.11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

In each case it was their faith that saved. Faith always has an object. They put their faith in Jehovah and His promises to both save and keep them.
DHK

 

[SolaScriptura]

In each case the faith was also active.

(Heb 11:17) By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.

What good would Abraham's faith have been if he said "I believe that God told me to sacrifice Isaac, but I refuse to do it"?

[ July 10, 2002, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
In each case the faith was also active.

I don't pervert the word "faith," or "believe."
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It is not "believe Plus" or "believe and" or "believe actively with etc." The Bible simply says believe. When you put the word "actively" in there you redefine the word believe according to your religion, and thus add works to salvation. You open the door to works with that one word. The Bible does not say that. Is says to: BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, not "believe actively" or any other way. Don't add to the Word of God.
DHK

 

[charles]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
In each case the faith was also active.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />(Heb 11:17) By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.

What good would Abraham's faith have been if he said "I believe that God told me to sacrifice Isaac, but I refuse to do it"?</font>[/QUOTE]Brother Sola,

Yes, their faith was active,but what did the bible count as righteousness?Was it the activity of circumcision or the faith that preceded it that was counted as righteousness?Romans4:10-11

Yes it takes both.But Abraham is the father of all who believe,not those who depend on their activity.Sure Abraham responded to his faith.But the bible says the law will not justify but faith will.Of course we know a dead faith will not preserve that righteousness.

We fool ourselves to become a believer and not attach the conditions that surround it.But no way can you say Gospel + obedience = salvation.Faith only=counted as righteousness.Response=A necessary activity as a believer(including baptism).

Hey,Sola you were right about semantics.In fact I believe every single person who is posting on this subject is speaking the truth.And really all saying te same thing,just saying it differently.

God bless,Charles

 

[Frank]

Dhk:
Believe is the action verb of faith. It is Pisteu. In every example in the Bible where belief is enjoined it is active. This is Biblical belief. If you want your type belief, see John 12 42,43, James 2:19, but this type is not acceptable to God. Why? It does not ACT!
The phrase Whosoever believeth in John 3:16 is a present participle that denotes CONTINUOUS ACTION.
Literally, one who keeps on believing.
You failed to answer my questions about the examples in the Old Testament about salvation.Therefore, in the interest of truth I will do so.No, the Children of Israel would Not have been saved unless they looked upon the serpent. NO, If the Children of Israel had not put blood on the door post they would not have been saved. No, the children of Israel would not have been saved unless Moses had directed the Sea to part and the exiting party walk across the land. Anyone who examines the text will see that faith must act to be saved. Always has; Always will.
Today, men must have an active faith to receive the grace that saves. MK. 16:16, Lk, 13:3, Mat. 10:32.
Frank

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:
You failed to answer my questions about the examples in the Old Testament about salvation.Therefore, in the interest of truth I will do so.No, the Children of Israel would Not have been saved unless they looked upon the serpent. NO, If the Children of Israel had not put blood on the door post they would not have been saved. No, the children of Israel would not have been saved unless Moses had directed the Sea to part and the exiting party walk across the land. Anyone who examines the text will see that faith must act to be saved. Always has; Always will.
Today, men must have an active faith to receive the grace that saves. MK. 16:16, Lk, 13:3, Mat. 10:32.
Frank

Sorry for not answering your question "in the way that you wanted it answered." What you have demonstrated in your answer is what I have been saying all along. Faith always has an object. In each case their faith had an object. It wasn't blind belief or blind faith. I know what you mean by "active faith," as opposed to dead faith, or simple consent that produces nominal Christians, and I am in agreement with you there. But I also know that you and Sola use this term "active faith" to open the door to redefine faith as including works. That's why you believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, because you must have "active faith," and that is heresy. You have taken away from the work of Christ, and redefined what belief and faith really mean. By inserting the word "active" in there you open the door to works. The Bible plainly declares that one is not saved by their works. (Eph.2:8,9)
DHK

 

[SolaScriptura]

Sure Abraham responded to his faith.But the bible says the law will not justify but faith will.

Is there no difference in obeying the Law from faithless necessity and obeying Christ from faith?

Certainly, firstly, Abraham was NOT under the Law, which is Paul's point in Rom 4:11 because the Law was only over the circumcised Gal 5:3, and only that AFTER MOSES (so Abraham was before the Law).

But, secondly, was he obeying Law faithlessly or obeying Christ from faith?
Does not Christ save those that obey him from faith? Doesn't even Paul say that? If as most suggest he is the writer of the Hebrew letter, then he does: "And being made perfect, he [Jesus Christ] became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Heb 5:9) --Them that obey Christ, but certainly not them that obey the Law.

Does not then the faith motivated obedience of Christ mean more than the obedience of the old Law? "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing; but obeying the commandments of God is everything." (1 Cor 7:19) Here, doesn't he contrast obedience to the Law with obedience to Christ? Obedience of the Law's ordinance of circumcision is nothing and disobedience of the Law's ordinance of circumcision is nothing, but obeying God's current commandments (those of the New Covenant) is everything.

According to James 2:21-24, Abraham was not justified by faith only. James says that works played a part in his justification BUT they were certainly not the works of the (at that time nonexistent) Law nor of merit - they were works of obedience to Christ by faith (which are wholly different). To deny this is to say that the Bible contradicts itself...unless you choose to hold the heresy of Luther that James is the "epistle of straw."

Now this is NOT works-based salvation, because the works don't save: Christ does. Christ, however, requires them before He will save us. "And being made perfect, he [Jesus Christ] became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Heb 5:9) You mean to tell me that Christ says we have to do something to be saved? "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Mat 7:21) But that passage just refers to belief, right? WRONG! He goes on after this to says in verse 24 "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:" -- The doing is of "THESE SAYING OF MINE" and is not simply belief. Note the parable: those that DO "THESE SAYING OF MINE" STAND and those that DON'T DO "THESE SAYING OF MINE" FALL...AND GREAT IS THEIR FALL.

"But you are saying that salvation is of works!" NO! Salvation is of the blood of Christ! (Heb 9:22) But Christ will not save everyone - only those that obey Him. (Heb 5:9)

"So, you are saying that obedience makes us deserving of salvation." No! NO! nO! You can NEVER deserve salvation! All our righteousness is as filthy rags, and the rags get the better of it. Even so, Jesus has declared that He will save the obedient. (Heb 5:9, Mt 7:21, etc.)

"So, you are saying that we can earn salvation." CERTAINLY NOT! We CANNOT earn salvation! We must, however, accept what God says and God says that Jesus saves the obedient (Heb 5:9, Mt 7:21, etc.)

"But we can't completely obey." That's why Jesus is our advocate. That's why Jesus is faithful and willing to forgive us our sins IF we confess. Read 1 John, 2 John, etc.

(Rev 14:12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Question: Does "keeping the faith" mean simply "continuing to believe" or is there more to "the faith"? When Jude said "contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" did He mean only the facts of the gospel or also the commandments of God? Did this phrase "the faith" not also refer to all of God's revelation to man?

[ July 11, 2002, 01:57 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:

According to James 2:21-24, Abraham was not justified by faith only. James says that works played a part in his justification BUT they were certainly not the works of the (at that time nonexistent) Law nor of merit - they were works of obedience to Christ by faith (which are wholly different). To deny this is to say that the Bible contradicts itself...unless you choose to hold the heresy of Luther that James is the "epistle of straw."

Eccl.3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?
---Now these verses have nothing to do with the topic at hand but serve as an illustration.
According to these verses, most cults say that you cannot prove dogmatically that there is eternal punishment like Hell, or even Heaven for that fact. In fact, these verses simply teach that in the end we are all going to die, be buried, turn to dust, and that's it. Who knows if there is a heaven or hell. Eat, drink, and be merry. You have nothing to lose. The cults love this. Of course that's not what it is really teaching, and you won't understand what it is teaching unless you understand these verses in the context of the entire Book of Ecclesiastes.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

---The cults love these verses also. They say these verses teach that one is justified by works. Just as Ecclesiastes teaches there is no Hell or Heaven, these verses teach that one is saved by their works. That's pretty plain isn't it. Of course that's not what these verses are really teaching, and any serious student of the Bible knows that for the Bible does not contradict itself. The verses must be taken in the context of the entire Book of James. But that's just tooo difficult for some people. Believe what you want. I can't help you. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
DHK

[ July 11, 2002, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[SolaScriptura]

Eccl.3:19-22 says in verse 20 "All go unto one place" and then "the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth." Looks like a contradication! Oh wait, verse 20 is about the body and verse 21 about the spirit. The body of man is just like the body of a beast, but the spirit of a man rather than going down to the earth like the beast, goes up to God who gave it.

James 2:21-25 teaches (not that man is justified by works) but that man is justified by faith w/ works. "See how by works faith was made perfect?" James says (para). In context, Abraham's faith would NOT have justified him had he not offered Isaac, nor would Rahab's faith justified her had she not helped the spies. Their works were necessary to their justification but their justification was not by works alone - it was principally by faith, but not by faith alone. It was by faith+works in context.

PS: If anyone is a "cult" it's the belief-only bunch that you're a part of, so I'd watch the name-calling if I were you.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
Their works were necessary to their justification but their justification was not by works alone - it was principally by faith, but not by faith alone. It was by faith+works in context.

Like I said, cults love to take these verses out of the context of the book in which they are written. The Book of Romans is a book written on the theme of soteriology, explaining in detail the doctrine of salvation. Romans chapter four makes it quite clear that salvation is by faith alone, without works. In addition to that book we have Ephesians 2:8,9, an unavoidable passage that says salvation is by faith and not by works. But alas, you wish to pervert God's Word anyway. Nothing I say will change your mind, will it? However:
Contrary to the doctrinal books of Romans and Ephesians, the Book of James is a book of practical Christian living. His emphasis is not so much on doctrine, but on practical every day living. The last half of the second chapter of the book of James is clearly speaking of a Christian's works that follow his salvation as a proof of his salvation. Works has nothing to do with his salvation. They follow. James even offers a challenge to skeptics such as yourself:

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
---The real meaning here is that James was justified by faith alone, but his works demonstrated that faith. If there were no works to demonstrate the faith, outwardly people would conclude that the person was not saved. Remember it is a practical book on Christian living. The works only justify in the sense that a person is changed when he is saved. Thus James says "I will show you my FAITH by my works." His works is not included in his faith. It is a result of his faith. Works is always, always, an outcome of true belief in Christ. And that is all that James is teaching here.
DHK

 

[charles]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
Eccl.3:19-22 says in verse 20 "All go unto one place" and then "the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth." Looks like a contradication! Oh wait, verse 20 is about the body and verse 21 about the spirit. The body of man is just like the body of a beast, but the spirit of a man rather than going down to the earth like the beast, goes up to God who gave it.

James 2:21-25 teaches (not that man is justified by works) but that man is justified by faith w/ works. "See how by works faith was made perfect?" James says (para). In context, Abraham's faith would NOT have justified him had he not offered Isaac, nor would Rahab's faith justified her had she not helped the spies. Their works were necessary to their justification but their justification was not by works alone - it was principally by faith, but not by faith alone. It was by faith+works in context.

PS: If anyone is a "cult" it's the belief-only bunch that you're a part of, so I'd watch the name-calling if I were you.

Sola,

There seems to be a misunderstanding of power.Sure works are what makes faith perfect as in James 2.

Faith provides the power which Romans 4 clearly defines.If that power is not strong enough to cause us in our hearts to obey then it would not be a perfect faith.

Romans 4 makes it perfectly clear that faith=being counted as righteousness but it also makes it clear that Abraham's obedience made his faith perfect.

Exactly at what point the jailer was counted as righteousness is according to Romans 4 is verse 31 in Acts 16.(that is if he believed after Paul said that).

What must I do to be saved? Paul not Billy Graham said...have faith.

So he must have had faith because the power from his faith led him to be baptized.

Now,was his righteousness from faith or from obeying?Would his faith mean anything if he failed to obey,no.....therefore faith is made perfect in obedience.

God knows us by our heart but the Jews had to have circumcision in order to display their faith but the bible says that didn't make them a Jew.It was that circumcision in their heart that said...hey,I'm willing to obey circumcision to be a Jew.Hey,I'm willing to obey baptism to become a christian.But no power is in our act,salvation is an act of God and God alone.

My folks planted the Church of Christ in their home before I was born,I know I sound more like a baptist but I'm not.My conscience keeps me believing what I understand the bible teaches not the hermeneutics of the church house I attend.

I love your posts,Charles

 

[Dualhunter]

I'm going bring up an example from an open-air sketchboard gospel presentation. In short the presentation is a true story about a Frenchman named Charles Leblondin (not sure if I spelled the last name right) who walk across a tight rope from the US side of Niagra Falls to the Canadian side and then back again. He then asked the growing crowd if they believed he could cross the cable with a wheel barrow with a bag of flour in it. They all said "yes you can do it Charles" and he did. Next he asked if they believed he could do the same thing except with a person inside the wheel barrow instead of a bag of flour. They all said yes again. Then he asked if there were any volunteers but not one single person was willing to get into the wheel barrow even though the crowd claim to believe that he could do it and had seen him cross the cable successfully twice already.

[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - John 3:16 KJV

From what I've heard the Greek word that is translated believe or in the KJV believeth, implies trust. The crowd claimed to believe that Charles could cross the falls on the high wire with a person in the wheel barrow but not one of them was willing to trust him with his or her life. We are called to entrust our lives in Christ and to put all our faith in him. Claiming to have faith won't get you anywhere if don't really have faith in Christ.

[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. - James 2:18 KJV

Notice that James says that he will show his faith by his works, his works are simple evidence of his faith.

[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. - 2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV

A person who claims to have faith but has not changed in the slightest can hardly be said to be a new creation or new creature, rather, such a person is the same not new. This verse does not say that by becoming a new creation a person enter's Christ, rather it says that if anyone is in Christ, that person is a new creation. The change is a result of being in Christ and as John 3:16 tells us we have eternal life in Christ by believing in him, by trusting in what he has done for us. Works play no part in attaining nor in maintaining salvation, good works are evidence of a new creation in Christ. So a person has not be regenerated by the Holy Spirit and made into a new creation, that person is not saved but lost. If faith is not reflected by one's works, at the very least, something is wrong and it may very well mean that the person is not saved (best not to simply assume that they aren't unless it is completely obvious, it would be much better to suggest to such a person that he or she examin his or herself). Many people claim to be Christians but are not, they have not truly given their life to Christ, trusting in his power to save by his death for our sins, and thus have not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit resulting in their being tranformed into a new creature.

We are saved by grace, through faith, not by works. We are given new life in Christ for the purpose of doing good works and so by all means we should do them but by no means are we saved by them.

[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. - Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV

 

[Chemnitz]

Certainly, firstly, Abraham was NOT under the Law, which is Paul's point in Rom 4:11 because the Law was only over the circumcised Gal 5:3, and only that AFTER MOSES (so Abraham was before the Law).

I don't know if anybody else noticed this but Abraham was circumcised. (Gen 17) Try and dissemble all you want Sola we are justified by faith not works. Works proceed from faith they do not justify.

 

[Bradleyc]

If it is by faith only, then even the s would be saved. (James 2:19)
Faith without works is .
(James 2:17)
I will show you my faith by my works (James 2:18)
Read James Ch.2