Originally posted by Frank:
Chemitz:
People should understand works before they draw their conclusions. you erroneous believe in only one kind of work... Merit! There many other types of works in the New Testament besides meritorious works. Consider the folowing:
1. Works of the Law. Gal.3:11.
2. Works of righteousness. Titus 3:5.
3. Works of the flesh. Gal. 5:19-21.
4. Works of merit. Eph. 2:8,9.
5. Works of an obedient active faith. Roms. 16:26.
Frank
Call them whatever you want but works are still works.
[4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. - Romans 4:4-5 KJV
If salvation were by good works, it would not be by grace, rather it would be by merit (you can say that the some works are not meritous but it does not change the nature of the Law: if you do all the things required by the Law, you are acceptable in God's eyes, it is a merit system and saying that the works are not works of merit will not change the system)
[5] For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. - Romans 10:5 KJV
[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. - Galatians 3:12 KJV
see also the rest of Galatians chapter 3 (basically the whole chapter which is why I won't bother posting it)
Paul contrasts the Law which is a system by which if you do the things required by it you shall live, with faith, the two are opposites. Are before you try to say that works of faith and works of the Law are different things, consider this: What is the Law or any law? It is a list of dos and don'ts that if you follow them you are considered just. Whether you think there are 613 laws/commandments or significantly fewer does not change the fact that such a system is a works based system.
If it is by works it is not by grace.
[6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. - Romans 11:6 KJV
Notice that most of these verses don't mention types of works, they simply say works because works are just that, works, no matter what you try to call them. If we look at your list we find that types 1&2 are dealt with in Romans 10:5 and Galatians 3:12 (3 is also indirectly dealt with): He talks of the righteousness of the Law and how it is based not on faith but on works so right away we see that "works of righteousness" and "works of the Law" are both by definition works and according to the verse and common sense are not faith, they are works. Now because the reward of these works of the Law and righteousness, which are the same thing, is only given if you do the works, the works are meritous and so once again, works are works no matter what you call them. Now if you are doing all that is required by the Law (again it does not matter if there are 613, 10 or however many laws, you always have to keep them all) you are being obedient, but it is still works and since you care enough to actually obey God's law you must have some sort of faith in Him. Works of the flesh are simply works of evil and thus merit God's justice.
[13] These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. - Hebrew 11:13 KJV
These all died without receiving the promises, they had faith + works but didn't do them any good until the day Christ said "It is finished" and then died for the sins of the world.
If we were to compare to common views of salvation and express them in equation form this is what we'd get:
1) faith + works = salvation
2) faith = salvation + works
View 1) states that works help attain or maintain salvation and denies that the death of Christ was sufficient payment for our sins, it denies Christ who said "It is finished" moments before he died. View 2) on the other hand, states that faith (that Christ atoned for our sins once and for all by His death in our place) is sufficient, it does not deny that we are saved by grace, it results in a redeemed soul, a changed heart, a new creation in Christ having been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Good works are a result of this regeneration they do not in any way cause or maintain this regeneration, to say that they do is to deny grace.
8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. - Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
Saved by grace through faith, the gift of God, not earned by works of any kind but created in Christ Jesus to do good works or for the mathematical thinkers:
faith = salvation + works
Rather than reposting these posts dealing with salvation and works, I'll just link to the previous 2 pages, just scroll down till you get to my fairly length posts:
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=000966;p=5
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=000966&p=4
Here's another post that I will copy and paste from:
[12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1:12-14 KJV
When a person truly places their faith in Christ, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit which is a deposit which guarantees salvation. If you give a deposit, you do not get the deposit back unless you pay up. Now since the deposit is the Holy Spirit, nobody is going to be taking the Holy Spirit with them to hell so you can be sure that if you really ever had the Holy Spirit to begin with, God will pay up and it just so happens that what He has promised to pay is eternal life with Him.
[20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. - Matthew 7:20 KJV
If the Holy Spirit is truly in a person and working in his or her life then it should be noticable. Maybe not always and maybe not as much as it should but if the Spirit is there it should show.
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23 KJV
The above are the signs of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If you do not see those things in your life, you should ask yourself why.
