What is the hold?

[steaver]

His people = those who join themselves into covenant with Him.

If torah was this country's rule of law, then a judicial court would rule on whether the law was broken or not and what the punishment would be. We are not to judge individually, nor enact the punishment individually.

Deu 17:6 “At the mouth of two or three witnesses shall he that is to die be put to death. He is not put to death by the mouth of one witness.
Deu_19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.​

So then back to my original question since you are arguing against your first answer of Numbers 15...

Now you are walking back your original answer so i will ask you again. If one does not obey the keeping of the Sabbath what is the consequence? And who in your church decides if a person has not obeyed it? From what i understand, the Sabbath begins at 6 o'clock Friday evening, so are you enforcing this in your church? I guess you couldn't take a 3-11 M-F job.

 

[steaver]

What you appear to be doing is grabbing something outside RCC doctrine and applying it to the Church as a whole.

After debating religion with people from different religions over the past 20 years I have observed the following;

If you want to know exactly what a religion believes and teaches you will have to have a conversation with the followers of the said religion you are investigating.

Religions will take their very own writings and twist them to fit their culture and agenda of their day. One example would be the RCC declaring in writing that anyone who adheres to "Faith Alone" is accursed. Now everyone knows perfectly well that when the RCC penned that they meant exactly what they said and even put to death those found guilty of such a belief as faith alone. Fast forward to the 21st century and the Catholics will now twist that and deny it means what it means as to push their agenda of unity among all religions.

This can also go the other way around. A religion can have down in writing a perfect set of doctrines, but when doctrines are taught in their congregations a different agenda and set of principles are pushed. You can see this with the Sabbath keepers like the SDAs. Look at their statements of faith and it sounds fine, speak with those who learn in the SDA and you will see quite a set of corrupted minds concerning the character of God and salvation. Same with Mormons, JWs, etc.

So this Thread was born out of conversations I have had with actual followers of the RCC on this very board of whom are still here. This is when you can question the faith and find out just what the followers are hearing from their preachers and teachers. It does not always align with the historical writings of that religion or the past practices of that religion when it was originally formed.

 

[steaver]

show me where the RCC ever said that

Haven't you been following the conversations I have had with Adonia and Utylan (sp) ? Even the Pope has called Muslims our brothers and sisters.

 

[Jason1]

So then back to my original question since you are arguing against your first answer of Numbers 15...

Now you are walking back your original answer so i will ask you again. If one does not obey the keeping of the Sabbath what is the consequence? And who in your church decides if a person has not obeyed it? From what i understand, the Sabbath begins at 6 o'clock Friday evening, so are you enforcing this in your church? I guess you couldn't take a 3-11 M-F job.

I'm not walking back anything. Numbers 15 talks about the consequence of willful sin which is amplified in heb 10. If you wish to know more, refer to the thread "Willful sin kills you". A saved person cannot openly defy the Creator (he's not truly saved then).

It would depend how your group is setup to decide things. If you're big enough to have elders then that would be governing body of the group. If its a small group, it would probably be by vote.

The sabbath begins at the going down of the sun. Evening to evening.

If you wish to know more on how to observe this eternal commandment so that you are not cut off from life, don't hesitate to ask. This is very important.

 

[steaver]

If you wish to know more on how to observe this eternal commandment so that you are not cut off from life, don't hesitate to ask. This is very important.

Now we are getting down to the basic. So you believe that all of us who do not keep the Sabbath are hell bound. So how does this work in your world? What happens when you personally violate the Sabbath? Do you lose your rebirth/salvation for a day. a week? And then you have to be born-again again?

 

[steaver]

It would depend how your group is setup to decide things. If you're big enough to have elders then that would be governing body of the group. If its a small group, it would probably be by vote.

So in your group you guys believe in your heart that a person who violates the Sabbath in your group should be stoned to death? You would probably be a Saul, watching the stoning of Stephen and consenting that it was good and just.

 

[Jason1]

Now we are getting down to the basic. So you believe that all of us who do not keep the Sabbath are hell bound. So how does this work in your world? What happens when you personally violate the Sabbath? Do you lose your rebirth/salvation for a day. a week? And then you have to be born-again again?

Its not how it works in my world, its all about how it works in His Kingdom.

Breaking the sabbath is a violation of the King's mandate. It is a basic tenant of the Kingdom and is designed to both honor the Creator of the universe and allow His subjects rest. Willfully breaking it puts you back under the law (condemnation of it) and tramples upon the blood of the savior who rescued you from the penalties.

1Jn 2:4 The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.​

So in your group you guys believe in your heart that a person who violates the Sabbath in your group should be stoned to death? You would probably be a Saul, watching the stoning of Stephen and consenting that it was good and just.

No, they shouldn't be stoned to death, but cast out of the group. There is always a chance for repentance and restoration. Allowing open sinners in your group puts to shame the name of the Father (like Israel was a shame to Him in their disobedience).​

 

[steaver]

Breaking the sabbath is a violation of the King's mandate. It is a basic tenant of the Kingdom and is designed to both honor the Creator of the universe and allow His subjects rest. Willfully breaking it puts you back under the law (condemnation of it) and tramples upon the blood of the savior who rescued you from the penalties.

Actually, I am not under the Law. I am under the Grace of Jesus Christ. You have chosen to be under the Law with your demands to adhere to the Law or else.

"Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?"

 

[steaver]

No, they shouldn't be stoned to death, but cast out of the group. There is always a chance for repentance and restoration.

I did not see anywhere in Numbers 15 a clause for allowing them a chance to repent. Jehovah said stone them to death. So you do not even follow God's command even though you keep patting yourself on the back for doing so. Don't you see your dilemma? You are fooling yourself.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Haven't you been following the conversations I have had with Adonia and Utylan (sp) ? Even the Pope has called Muslims our brothers and sisters.

Actually I haven't....,.I consider it all "Blah, Blah, Blah. My intent is to debate you (and others) on your original statement about why people are so loyal to Roman Catholic Religion.

 

[steaver]

Actually I haven't....,.I consider it all "Blah, Blah, Blah. My intent is to debate you (and others) on your original statement about why people are so loyal to Roman Catholic Religion.

Oh. ok. I will show you...

Adonia and Utilyan,

Please answer the following...

Can a Good Samaritan hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, reject it, and still be saved?

 

[Jason1]

I did not see anywhere in Numbers 15 a clause for allowing them a chance to repent. Jehovah said stone them to death. So you do not even follow God's command even though you keep patting yourself on the back for doing so. Don't you see your dilemma? You are fooling yourself.

That was a singular event. The people didn't know what to do with the man so they held him and let YHVH decide his fate.

If the same sin happens today, that doesn't mean we can stone him without the authority to do so. There are certain sins that merit instant capital punishment, but that has to be done through a legal system.

Do you not wish to know the truth of sabbath and instead try to shift the subject? Obedience is paramount to salvation.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Oh. ok. I will show you...

Adonia and Utilyan,

Please answer the following...

Can a Good Samaritan hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, reject it, and still be saved?

OK.....it is not my position to judge another person's salvation. That's God's job.....but I did read earlier that Utilyan indicate that we can save ourselves. If so, I would like him to substantiate it with scripture. See when I read scripture like Ephesians 2: 1-10 ... I see something different. Also:

John 3New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Teaches Nicodemus
3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.a]">[a]”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”


5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spiritb]">[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘Youc]">[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”d]">[d]

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.e]">[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,f]">[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”g]">[g]

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

 

[Bro. James]

I am an ex-Catholic...born, raised, educated (12 years of Catholic schools). By the time I graduated from high school I was, for all practical purposes, an atheist. I went back after I had my children, wanting to give them SOME sort of religious upbringing and that was all I knew.

THEN...I really READ the bible. A friend who was not Catholic gave me a bible (Mom's devotional NIV). All the things I believed to be "biblical" really weren't. I knew then I had to leave...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you so much for your testimony. There are many more who have had similar experiences including myself.

Curious: we hear a lot about the so-called Baptists who have converted to the RCC. If the real stats were available, the vast majority of converts have come out of darkness into the marvelous light of the real Jesus of the Bible--not found in the Catechism.

Surf: Baptist Heritage and Baptist Distinctives.

There are a lot of pseudo Baptists out there. Also, many who think it doesn't matter. We will all be giving an account to the One who made us. We have no excuses.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Lord bless.

Bro. James

 

[Adonia]

All that has happened to you folks who have left the Catholic Church and orthodoxy is that you now believe a different interpretation of the Holy Scriptures - that is all you got.

You are now following men who came up with stuff 1400 plus years after the Universal Christian Church continued on the work of teaching all of Christendom. I'll stick with the experts, thank you very much and if I wasn't a Roman Catholic I would follow the teachings of our Eastern Orthodox brothers.

Jason left the Latin Rite and entered into a real abomination that can't even follow the truth of keeping kosher, let alone the truth of Trinitarian Christianity. The rest of you are spread out amongst other equally confusing and misleading Christian sects.

I mean really, why haven't you folks joined Jason, or why hasn't Jason joined you? Which of you folks has the truth???????

 

[Adonia]

I am an ex-Catholic...born, raised, educated (12 years of Catholic schools). By the time I graduated from high school I was, for all practical purposes, an atheist. I went back after I had my children, wanting to give them SOME sort of religious upbringing and that was all I knew.

THEN...I really READ the bible. A friend who was not Catholic gave me a bible (Mom's devotional NIV). All the things I believed to be "biblical" really weren't. I knew then I had to leave...

No, all you did was to A. Start interpreting the Scriptures yourself. Or B. Start believing someone else's interpretation of the Bible.

A little history here - it all started with Martin Luther who tore the Bible apart, then all the others like Wycliffe, Wesley, Zwingli, down the road to SDA's, the JW's, etc. Which one of those folks got it all right? Hah, it's hard to choose, isn't it? They all rejected orthodoxy, which one did you choose? So how do you know you are getting the correct teaching?

 

[steaver]

I mean really, why haven't you folks joined Jason, or why hasn't Jason joined you? Which of you folks has the truth???????

The Truth is in the Scripture, not in anyone's interpretations thereof. We are called to lead people through the Scriptures, it is the Holy Spirit whom will divide the Truth from any error man might interject.

 

[Adonia]

What is the hold?

Brainwashing from the cradle--causing strong delusion believing a lie.

Also, there are those who know their religion is wrong, yet they will not repent and turn because of the conflict, turmoil and excommunication which will result in their family and social contacts. Lastly, it is a religion which suits many peoples lifestyles--yep, convenient. Human nature loves the flesh.

The Lord does call some out. They make very vociferous converts.

The cult of Nimrod is still alive and well on planet Earth.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

Orthodoxy has Jesus in the flesh, why would I want to go anywhere else? That's good solid Christian teaching from the beginning of the Universal Church. Look at the historical record, right from the beginning with the Apostles and the early Bishops of the Universal Christian Church. It is only the error filled interpretation by men some 1400 plus years down the road that gave you what you believe about this.

 

[Adonia]

The Truth is in the Scripture, not in anyone's interpretations thereof. We are called to lead people through the Scriptures, it is the Holy Spirit whom will divide the Truth from any error man might interject.

Oh please, that's all we are dealing with here - interpretation. We look at the same passages yet we come to different meanings - so how can this be? I'll go with the Holy Spirit in conjunction with the Church that has been teaching this stuff for over 2000 years. My guy didn't show up in the 15th century and start spouting different things - yours did.

 

[steaver]

Oh please, that's all we are dealing with here - interpretation. We look at the same passages yet we come to different meanings - so how can this be? I'll go with the Holy Spirit in conjunction with the Church that has been teaching this stuff for over 2000 years. My guy didn't show up in the 15th century and start spouting different things - yours did.

Scripture needs no interpreter. God has given us preachers and teachers to guide us through the scriptures that we may understand sound doctrine. We are responsible for raising questions when we see a teacher is giving something a spin or a twist or adding their own interpretations and declaring them to be the word of God. It is not difficult to recognize when someone is going beyond what has been written. Usually other passages will expose their errors.

Take for example the story of the good Samaritan. You will have teachers declare that since this Samaritan was merciful enough to help a stranger in distress then that person must surely be saved. However, we can go directly to the gospel of John chapter 3, among many other passages throughout scripture, and see clearly that being a good Samaritan, while being a very righteous deed, does not save, for deeds do not save a person. Thus, the interpretation that a good Samaritan must be saved is false and should be rejected outright. Scripture interprets Scripture. No outside interpreting is necessary.