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What is wrong with Calvinism
- Thread starter SAMPLEWOW
- Start date
Who cares about Calvinists? My father, his father, and his father before him were all Armenians.
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Calvinists are a cult religion period. They deny Christ is the Savior of all men. They deny that men can choose to come to Christ or not come to Christ when convicted by the Holy Spirit. And they believed only God planned to save just the elect and all others were predestined for the fires of hell.
I think the elders at Bethlehem Baptist (John Piper's church) have done an excellent job summarizing Calvinism:
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/tulip.html
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/tulip.html
Charles Meadows
New Member
I think "Calvinism", attempting to affirm God's sovereignty and respect the literal scriptures, ends up putting God "in a box".
If God is all-sovereign then this and that must be true.
Well-meaning, God centered - but yet in a way limiting God's ability to be sovereign in the way HE decides.
If God is all-sovereign then this and that must be true.
Well-meaning, God centered - but yet in a way limiting God's ability to be sovereign in the way HE decides.
For general historical background, I think the Wikipedia does a good job:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism
Uhm....not really. Calvinists believe that Christ is the Savior of believers in a way he is not the Savior of every single person.
No. Calvinists believe men make real choices. The choice to come to Christ is a real choice, and the choice to reject Christ is a real choice. Calvinists believe God's choice and human beings real choice are compatible. They are both true.
This one is more or less right. Calvinists believe that God only planned to save some people. He didn't plan to save every single person. If he had, then every single person would be saved.
Samplewow,
The resources given to you above are good ones to read to answer your questions.
I think Calvinism and Armenianism are 2 sides of the same coin we cannot fully see from our limited veiwpoint in this thing that God created called "time"
Remove "time" from the element and the argument vanishes.
God did it...I did it...God did it...I did it...
Who cares? Christ did it on Calvary. The one moment in all history that matters most!
Ok, God did it...............
Remove "time" from the element and the argument vanishes.
God did it...I did it...God did it...I did it...
Who cares? Christ did it on Calvary. The one moment in all history that matters most!
Ok, God did it...............
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
Well stated. I agree that the over reliance on logical syllogisms is one of the weaknesses of Calvinism.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
The Five points of Calvinism, better known as The Five Errors Of Calvinism
TOTAL DEPRAVITY OR INABILITY
The first point asserts that the entire or TOTAL human being--body and soul, intellect and will, etc.--is fallen and that everyone is born spiritually dead, helpless, and passive; indeed, everyone is worse than volitionally dead or unable to desire spiritual good but is actually enslaved to sin, positively and actively hostile to the things of the Spirit (Calvinists cite, e.g., John. 1:13; 8:43, 47; 10:26; 12:37-40; 18:37; Romans. 7:18; 8:5-8; 1 Corinthians. 2:9-14).
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
The second point inescapably follows from the first: since one is born totally depraved and enslaved to sin, one's ELECTION cannot be dependent or CONTINGENT on any spiritually worthy actions one commits. According to this point, God predestines or chooses to soften the hard, sin-enslaved hearts of certain fallen individuals and liberate them from their death not because of any merit they have but despite their demerits--i.e., He ELECTS to change their hearts (and thereby join them to Christ and His saving work) DESPITE the fact that they hate God and oppose Him and have hard hearts, not soft hearts, and have sin-enslaved wills, not free wills. Thus, believers have no reason to boast about themselves or their own actions: the only thing that differentiates them from Judas, Esau, or others who never respond in faith is that God gave them grace that He withheld from such reprobates (Calvinists cite, e.g., Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:26-27; Rom. 9:11-18; 1 Cor. 4:7; Eph. 2:8-10; cf. Jn. 1:13; 15:16; Acts 13:48; 16:14; 18:27; Phil. 2:13).
LIMITED ATONEMENT or Particular Redemption
This point says that while Christ's blood--indeed, His entire life, death, and resurrection--is infinitely INTENSIVE in saving power and thus unlimited in one sense, it is not infinitely EXTENSIVE and is thus limited, not universal, in the extent of its application; for while everyone CONDITIONALLY or "provisionally" shares in Christ's life, death, and resurrection (thus, if everyone believed, everyone would be joined or married to Christ), only members of Christ's body or bride or flock (ELECT believers) actually share in His blood (Calvinists cite, e.g., Jn. 10:11, 15, 26; 17:9; cf. 6:37, 39; 17:2, 6, 24).
IRRESISTIBLE (SUFFICIENT) GRACE
This is virtually a synonym for Luther's slogan "grace alone" (sola gratia) and is logically implied by points "T" and "U" above. It teaches that God's INWARD CALL is perfectly EFFECTUAL or SUFFICIENT--a hard, fleshly, sinful heart need not add anything to God's grace, such as "co-operation," for this special call or grace is invincible, overpowering all hatred and melting all opposition (Calvinists cite, e.g., Jn. 3:6-8). Here Calvinists distinguish God's inward, effectual call--i.e., IRRESISTIBLE GRACE or sufficient, effective grace--from His outward call, which is simply His commandments written on tablets of stone. The latter is eminently resistible, insufficient, and ineffective to give life to a dead soul or liberate a sin-enslaved heart (e.g., Acts 7:51; 13:39; Rom. 8:3).
PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS or Eternal Security
This is not the idea that no matter what a believer does he or she cannot lose his or her salvation but the idea that " . . . He who began a good work in you will perfect it . . " (Phil. 1:6 [NASB]; cf., e.g., Jn. 6:37, 39; 10:28-29; Rom. 8:31-39)--i.e., the idea that whenever God creates faith in our hearts and thereby joins us to Christ and His saving work, He will sustain that faith, that saving relationship with Christ, causing us, by His grace, to persevere in faith.
This post is posted with thanks to the members of the AP Euro discussion group and their contributions. September, 2001.
TOTAL DEPRAVITY OR INABILITY
The first point asserts that the entire or TOTAL human being--body and soul, intellect and will, etc.--is fallen and that everyone is born spiritually dead, helpless, and passive; indeed, everyone is worse than volitionally dead or unable to desire spiritual good but is actually enslaved to sin, positively and actively hostile to the things of the Spirit (Calvinists cite, e.g., John. 1:13; 8:43, 47; 10:26; 12:37-40; 18:37; Romans. 7:18; 8:5-8; 1 Corinthians. 2:9-14).
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
The second point inescapably follows from the first: since one is born totally depraved and enslaved to sin, one's ELECTION cannot be dependent or CONTINGENT on any spiritually worthy actions one commits. According to this point, God predestines or chooses to soften the hard, sin-enslaved hearts of certain fallen individuals and liberate them from their death not because of any merit they have but despite their demerits--i.e., He ELECTS to change their hearts (and thereby join them to Christ and His saving work) DESPITE the fact that they hate God and oppose Him and have hard hearts, not soft hearts, and have sin-enslaved wills, not free wills. Thus, believers have no reason to boast about themselves or their own actions: the only thing that differentiates them from Judas, Esau, or others who never respond in faith is that God gave them grace that He withheld from such reprobates (Calvinists cite, e.g., Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:26-27; Rom. 9:11-18; 1 Cor. 4:7; Eph. 2:8-10; cf. Jn. 1:13; 15:16; Acts 13:48; 16:14; 18:27; Phil. 2:13).
LIMITED ATONEMENT or Particular Redemption
This point says that while Christ's blood--indeed, His entire life, death, and resurrection--is infinitely INTENSIVE in saving power and thus unlimited in one sense, it is not infinitely EXTENSIVE and is thus limited, not universal, in the extent of its application; for while everyone CONDITIONALLY or "provisionally" shares in Christ's life, death, and resurrection (thus, if everyone believed, everyone would be joined or married to Christ), only members of Christ's body or bride or flock (ELECT believers) actually share in His blood (Calvinists cite, e.g., Jn. 10:11, 15, 26; 17:9; cf. 6:37, 39; 17:2, 6, 24).
IRRESISTIBLE (SUFFICIENT) GRACE
This is virtually a synonym for Luther's slogan "grace alone" (sola gratia) and is logically implied by points "T" and "U" above. It teaches that God's INWARD CALL is perfectly EFFECTUAL or SUFFICIENT--a hard, fleshly, sinful heart need not add anything to God's grace, such as "co-operation," for this special call or grace is invincible, overpowering all hatred and melting all opposition (Calvinists cite, e.g., Jn. 3:6-8). Here Calvinists distinguish God's inward, effectual call--i.e., IRRESISTIBLE GRACE or sufficient, effective grace--from His outward call, which is simply His commandments written on tablets of stone. The latter is eminently resistible, insufficient, and ineffective to give life to a dead soul or liberate a sin-enslaved heart (e.g., Acts 7:51; 13:39; Rom. 8:3).
PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS or Eternal Security
This is not the idea that no matter what a believer does he or she cannot lose his or her salvation but the idea that " . . . He who began a good work in you will perfect it . . " (Phil. 1:6 [NASB]; cf., e.g., Jn. 6:37, 39; 10:28-29; Rom. 8:31-39)--i.e., the idea that whenever God creates faith in our hearts and thereby joins us to Christ and His saving work, He will sustain that faith, that saving relationship with Christ, causing us, by His grace, to persevere in faith.
This post is posted with thanks to the members of the AP Euro discussion group and their contributions. September, 2001.
Uhmmm. Interesting argument. May I ask if you believe, preach, and assert, that God is unequivocally and unarguably the Father of all men?
There is nothing in the Bible to support what you said about men being able to come or not come to Christ when convicted by the Holy Spirit.
The Bible says believers can quench the Holy Spirit of God, believers and believers only can grieve the Holy Spirit of God, and God called only His people to repentance. You look at the Old Testament, and find us one verse that shows God called the Ammonites, or the Gittites, or the Jebusites, to repentance in the same manner and for the same end that He calls His people to repentance.
That is for the Calvinists on this board to answer.
The big body of Primitive Baptists do not believe so.
craigbythesea,
It would be better to list the 5 points of the Remonstrance before posting the rebuttal by the Synod of Dort (now known as 5 points of Calvinism, although Calvin didn't write them). And, it is most definitely better to post them without the biased commentary that you provided.
The 5 points of Calvinism were a response to errors that were creeping in to the church. The Synod of Dort refuted the errors with scripture. Here is a good, accurate discussion:
First, the actual 5 points from the remonstrants:
http://www.apuritansmind.com/Creeds/ArminianArticles.htm
Then, the response from the Synod of Dort:
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil//creeds/dort.htm
It would be better to list the 5 points of the Remonstrance before posting the rebuttal by the Synod of Dort (now known as 5 points of Calvinism, although Calvin didn't write them). And, it is most definitely better to post them without the biased commentary that you provided.
The 5 points of Calvinism were a response to errors that were creeping in to the church. The Synod of Dort refuted the errors with scripture. Here is a good, accurate discussion:
First, the actual 5 points from the remonstrants:
http://www.apuritansmind.com/Creeds/ArminianArticles.htm
Then, the response from the Synod of Dort:
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil//creeds/dort.htm
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
So, are you arguing that the premises in the syllogisms are untrue, or that the syllogisms themselves are invalid, or are you arguing against using logic? </font>[/QUOTE]I agree with the biblical premises of Calvinist syllogisms. I consider myself to be a highly logical person who uses logic in every aspect of my life. I agree with many of the syllogisms used by Calvinists. I would even say that I could agree with certain expressions of all 5 points of Calvinism.
However, I believe an over reliance on these syllogisms to explain God is a key weakness of Calvinism for the following reasons:
1) Those syllogisms often are used at the exclusion of other scriptures indicating a tension in the characteristics of God and man between the Calvinistic ones and possibly another polarity.
2) Those syllogisms assume that we can encapsulate God's characterstics and mystery in a few statements using human language and comprehension, a common rationalistic-reductionist error.
3) While God is most definitely a logical God, I believe we are in error if we believe human logic is ever perfect when used to explain God.
Charles Meadows
New Member
Nicely put Gold Dragon.
Calvinists believe that God is always working in everything to accomplish his will, and his working in everything to accomplish his will includes the salvation of mankind.
It's right because it's the picture scripture in its totality gives us.
Okay, I'll post a couple, but remember that Calvinism doesn't rise or fall on one or two passages of scripture. It's the picture of God's work in his creation and among his creatures that all of scripture taken together gives us.
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
God works in everything to accomplish his will, even in our salvation.
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."
Our salvation is God's doing. The gospel of Christ becomes wisdom to us by God's doing (See the whole context of these verses). Christ becomes righteousness to us by God's doing. We are set apart in Christ by God's doing. We are redeemed by Christ by God's doing. Everything in our salvation is God's work, so God is the only one who gets the credit.