What is wrong with Calvinism

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Ransom:
said:

None of the five theological concepts expressed in the Five Points of Calvinism is known to have existed prior to the 16th century

Not by you, anyway. Although I am sure that this information would have come as a surprise to men like Augustine and Gottschalk.

I assume that you are not just name-dropping and that you are actually familiar with quotes by Augustine and Gottschalk that support your position. Therefore I ask that you post some of them so that our readers will know which one of us has studied, and which one of us has not. And please don’t bother to post the quotes from them that we are all familiar with in which they express some of the fragmentary pieces of the whole of one of the Five Points of Calvinism along with ideas that are very different from those of Calvin, but the whole of one of the Five Points. No, not all five of the Five Points, just one of them will do.

Dear readers, please carefully and prayerfully study this matter for yourself if you really want to know the truth. And please don’t study this from the perspective of only one writer, or one theological position, but from several writers representing several theological positions.

 

[Dr. Bob]

A reminder to all - using terms like "heretic" or "cult" will get your posts snipped and you may find yourself on the outside of this discussion looking in.

And please, the original post is not looking for YOUR OPINION. It is looking for Scriptural support or refutation of what calvinism is. What YOU think of it is not relevant.

Thanks.

 

[Ron Arndt]

Dr Bob

Will you please tell us what a person is that does not preach the same good news or gospel that Jesus preached? Did Paul say Jesus was the Savior of all men or not? Did Jesus say he came to save the world or not? John 3:17,4:42

 

[bjonson]

Craigbythesea challenged me as follows:

"I assume that you also have studied the history of the interpretation of the Bible throughout the entire history of the Church from many points of view and that you have a large collection of the writings of the ancient church to back up what you have said in your posts. Therefore, please quote just one Christian writer who wrote from the time of the close of the New Testament canon up to the beginning of the 16the century that explicitly teaches the doctrine of eternal security."

So, here you go:

"put away doubting from you, and do not hesitate to ask of the Lord, saying to yourself, 'how can I ask of the Lord and receive from Him, seeing I have sinned so much against Him?' Do not reason with yoursef in this manner. Instead, with all your heart turn to the Lord, and ask of Him without doubting. For then you will know the multitude of His tender mercies and that He will never leave yhou, but will fulfil the request of your soul. For He is not like men, who remember evils done against them." - Hermas (c.150, W), 2.26

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
Dr Bob

Will you please tell us what a person is that does not preach the same good news or gospel that Jesus preached? Did Paul say Jesus was the Savior of all men or not? Did Jesus say he came to save the world or not? John 3:17,4:42

Ron,

I'm not Dr. Bob, but let me tell you that your ridiculous rants that Calvinism is a false gospel is insulting and embarrassing for you. Do you have any idea what you are talking about? The biblical gospel is exactly what Calvinism teaches.

Read this for an excellent perspective from Spurgeon:

http://www.geocities.com/cfpchurch/chscalvinism.html

 

[russell55]

I'm going to respond to this post because it's full of misinformation about what it is Calvinists believe, and what it is that Calvinists believe seems to be part of what the opening poster is looking for.

Calvinists DO deny Christ is the Savior of the world or of all men. They believe Christ is the Savior of ONLY the elect.

Calvinists believe Christ only actually saves the elect (or believers), and that the saving purpose of his death was toward the elect (or believers). Christ did not die intending to save every single person who ever lived; he died intending to save everyone who believed.

However, they also believe that Christ provided a means of salvation for mankind, and on the basis of this means of salvation, the gospel can be shared with everyone, for there is a way for anyone who believes to be saved.

.... they believe Christ is NOT the potential Savior of all men.

It depends on what you mean by potential. If what you mean by "potential Savior" is that there is a way provided for any person who believes to be saved, then there is potential for all men in Christ's death. And quite honestly, I don't know what else besides that you think it can mean.

Ask them if Christ died so that ALL MEN could be saved? There answer will be no.

I don't have to ask "them". I can ask myself, since I am one. And you are right, I would say "No, Christ didn't die so that every single person could be saved. He died so that EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES will be saved. Christ did not die with the purpose of saving unbelievers.

Ask them if Christ tasted death for every man? Heb 2:9 They will say no.

No Calvinist disagrees with Hebrews 2:9. They might have a different interpretation of it than you do, but they wouldn't disagree with it. Every single Calvinist would believe that there is some sense in which Christ came to "taste death for everyone."

Calvinist teaches a false gospel. They cite the scriptures that Christ died for the church, his sheep and for his people, but twist or ignore the same bible that says Christ was given FOR THE WORLD, the whole world, the Savior of all men and the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world.

Uhm....as explained above, a Calvinist just thinks that the Scriptures that say that Christ died for the church mean that his death had special reference to them. It had a purpose for "everyone who believes" that it didn't have for "everyone who doesn't believe".

Also a Calvinist cannot share the true gospel with any unsaved person and tell them Christ died FOR YOU.

I would tell someone Christ died for them, and so would many Calvinists I know, since, as explained above, I think that one of the purposes of Christ's death was to provide a means by which human beings could be saved and upon which the gospel can be shared throughout the world.

I don't know where you are getting your info about Calvinism, but your source is not a good one. It misrepresents things, and is full of straw men.

 

[Andy T.]

Good post, Russell.

 

[bjonson]

Here is an excellent article on how and when the TULIP doctrine, as it is sometimes known, was defined:

http://www.apuritansmind.com/TULIP/McMahonTipToeThroughTULIP.htm

There is good discussion of how the Calvinistic doctrine goes all the way back to the scriptures...

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Fundamentalist1611:
The calvinism (John Calvin/John Knox teaching) that teaches that regeneration occurs before faith is uttermost heresy!

No it isn't. It goes to the very heart of what grace is.

If grace is truly unmerited then it cannot be premised ultimately on a "good" decision by a man. Decisions are a result of process. A process is work no matter how you cut it. Mental work is work.

The question then goes like this: Does man have to be acted upon by God... spiritually resurrected (regenerated) prior to salvation or does man possess enough goodness in and of himself to make the right decision? If the later then why does that not constitute "good that we have done"?

God wants all men/women saved!

In what instance would you say that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God could not get what He ultimately "wants"?

Perhaps you being more neutral will answer my question that other anti-calvinists have evaded:

Can man or man's decision thwart the perfect will of God?

 

[Ron Arndt]

Scott

It is not a matter of what seems logical, but rather what does the word of God say? Is a sinner free to choose come to Christ or not, when convicted by the word of God and the Holy Spirit or not? What does John 5:40, John 7:17, Acts 7:51 and Rev 22:17 mean?

 

[bjonson]

Ron,

Read John 3, the story of Nicodemus, and tell me what you think Jesus meant in verse 8.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
Scott

It is not a matter of what seems logical,
but rather what does the word of God say?

Did I say it was? It is absolutely a matter of what the Word says... all of the Word. It is in fact a matter of reading all the relevant scriptures and conforming our interpretations accordingly.

Faith, belief, repentance, man's will, etc all must be accounted for... but so does God's sovereignty, election, and man's depravity.

Is a sinner free to choose come to Christ or not, when convicted by the word of God and the Holy Spirit or not?

Can he? Yes. WILL he? No... not unless God changes his nature.

Considering John 3, what person chooses to be born? Which choose their parents? Are the fact that these are not subject to personal choice violations of our free will? Why in fact would John 3:16 be premised on a discussion of spiritual rebirth with no allusion to man's good choices whatsoever?

What does John 5:40, John 7:17, Acts 7:51 and Rev 22:17 mean?

They mean what they mean when taken in the context of Romans 8, Eph 1, John 10, John 17, Acts 13:48, 1 Peter 1:2, Titus 1, etc, etc.

These declare God's election of the saints... and doesn't in any respect qualify that election to those who God foreknew would sovereignly decide of their own goodness to choose Him.

 

[jw]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
Calvinists are a cult religion period. They deny Christ is the Savior of all men. They deny that men can choose to come to Christ or not come to Christ when convicted by the Holy Spirit. And they believed only God planned to save just the elect and all others were predestined for the fires of hell.

So Jonathan Edwards and the Great Awakening was a cult movement. Insightful.

Not enough Baptists know their own history.

 

[russell55]

What does John 5:40, John 7:17, Acts 7:51 and Rev 22:17 mean?

See, it's things like this that make me think that somewhere you've received some misinformation about what Calvinists believe.

John 5:40

but you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life.

Those who don't come to Christ--at least those who know about him--choose not to come. If they had chosen otherwise, they would have had eternal life. I don't know what interpretation you could have of this verse that you would think it argued against Calvinism if you understood what Calvinists believe. Calvinist believe that all people make real choices, and the choice to reject Christ is made willingly, just as the choice to come to him is made willingly.

John 7:17

If anyone wants to do God’s will,he will know about my teaching, whether it is from God or whether I speak from my own authority.

Those who want to do God's will recognize Christ's teaching as teaching from God. I'm absolutely clueless as to why you thought this verse had anything at all to say against Calvinism.

Acts 7:51

You stubborn people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are always resisting the Holy Spirit, like your ancestors did!

Those who reject God, Christ, God's workers, the gospel, etc, do so because they keep on resisting the Holy Spirit, and the root cause of this resistence is their hard hearts and stubbornly dull ears. Once again, I'm left wondering what you've been told about Calvinism that makes you think this verse is a problem for a Calvinist.

Rev 22:17

And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say: “Come!” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wants it take the water of life free of charge.

I'm at a loss here, too. Do you think that Calvinist's don't believe that people are invited to come? Or what? Where are you getting your info?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by jw:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
Calvinists are a cult religion period. They deny Christ is the Savior of all men. They deny that men can choose to come to Christ or not come to Christ when convicted by the Holy Spirit. And they believed only God planned to save just the elect and all others were predestined for the fires of hell.

So Jonathan Edwards and the Great Awakening was a cult movement. Insightful.

Not enough Baptists know their own history. </font>[/QUOTE]Unfortunately... as much as I would like to claim him... Edwards wasn't a Baptist.

His theology would probably agree pretty much with modern day PCA's.

 

[Robert J Hutton]

What is wrong with Calvinism is that they take a Biblical idea (that God is sovereign and initiates the work of salvation) and take it too far. The same goes for Arminianism, they take a Biblical view (that man is responsible) and take it too far. The truth, as we find in the Bible, is a balanced position. To row a boat requires 2 oars working in balance.

Kind regards to all.

Bob

 

[jw]

Unfortunately... as much as I would like to claim him... Edwards wasn't a Baptist.

His theology would probably agree pretty much with modern day PCA's.

My bad. He was a Congregationalist. But he taught the doctrines of grace all the same, so the point remains. Does Ron really believe the Great Awakening was a cult revival?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Robert J Hutton:
What is wrong with Calvinism is that they take a Biblical idea (that God is sovereign and initiates the work of salvation) and take it too far. The same goes for Arminianism, they take a Biblical view (that man is responsible) and take it too far. The truth, as we find in the Bible, is a balanced position. To row a boat requires 2 oars working in balance.

Kind regards to all.

Bob

I would say that you have effectively demonstrated that you don't know what Calvinism is.

Calvinists do not deny man's responsibility... but in fact assert it even more strongly than Arminians.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
Scott

It is not a matter of what seems logical, but rather what does the word of God say? Is a sinner free to choose come to Christ or not, when convicted by the word of God and the Holy Spirit or not? What does John 5:40, John 7:17, Acts 7:51 and Rev 22:17 mean?

BTW, Ron... Why didn't you answer my question?

 

[Ron Arndt]

Scott

I have answered you and others about the false teachings of Calvinism in my previous posts and from scripture as well. Calvinists denies Christ is the Savior of the world.John 4:42 And that the Holy Spirit can be resisted, when the gospel is preached.Acts 7:51.