What is wrong with Calvinism

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by bjonson:
Craigbythesea challenged me as follows:

"I assume that you also have studied the history of the interpretation of the Bible throughout the entire history of the Church from many points of view and that you have a large collection of the writings of the ancient church to back up what you have said in your posts. Therefore, please quote just one Christian writer who wrote from the time of the close of the New Testament canon up to the beginning of the 16the century that explicitly teaches the doctrine of eternal security."

So, here you go:

"put away doubting from you, and do not hesitate to ask of the Lord, saying to yourself, 'how can I ask of the Lord and receive from Him, seeing I have sinned so much against Him?' Do not reason with yoursef in this manner. Instead, with all your heart turn to the Lord, and ask of Him without doubting. For then you will know the multitude of His tender mercies and that He will never leave yhou, but will fulfil the request of your soul. For He is not like men, who remember evils done against them." - Hermas (c.150, W), 2.26

This was a very common teaching in the early Church and it is precise what I believe and teach. Jesus will never abandon us and He is quick to forgive us of our sins. However, there is absolutely nothing in this passage quoted above by The Shepherd of Hermas or in any of the writings in the Bible that teach that those who abandon their faith in Christ and seek after other gods or no god at all are secure in Christ. And there is absolutely nothing in this passage quoted above by The Shepherd of Hermas or in any of the writings in the Bible that teach that God will not allow a born-again believer to abandon his faith in Christ. We have nearly 2,000 years of documented proof that such abandonment is not only possible but all too frequent. God has, however, set limits on how much sin in the life of a believer he will forgive, and there is nothing said in this passage quoted above by The Shepherd of Hermas or in any of the writings in the Bible that teach that God has not set limits on how much sin in the life of a believer He will forgive.

My personal belief is that once a man has crossed the line, there is no turning back and no desire to turn back because the Holy Spirit will no longer draw him. The man who says in his heart, 'how can I ask of the Lord and receive from Him, seeing I have sinned so much against Him?' has most certainly not crossed that line and hopefully he never will.

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. (NASB, 1995)

Readers who may wish to know more fully what the Shepherd of Hermas taught about salvation my find the following quotes interesting:

"They only who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as to those who keep not His commandments, there is no life in them." ANF, II:25

"But those who do not keep his commandments, flee from his life, and despise him. But he has his own honour with the Lord. All, therefore, who shall despise him, and not follow his commands, deliver themselves to death, and every one of them will be guilty of his own blood. But I enjoin you, that you obey his commands, and you will have a cure for your former sins." ANF, II:55

 

[russell55]

Calvinists denies Christ is the Savior of the world.John 4:42 And that the Holy Spirit can be resisted, when the gospel is preached.Acts 7:51.

You are wrong on both counts. Calvinists deny neither of these things.

Why do you keep repeating them when they aren't true? I can understand saying them once because somewhere you got some misinformation from a poor source about what it is Calvinists believe, but why would you keep on repeating them when real live Calvinists have corrected these misconception?

I'm sorry if I sound short, but there is so much of this sort of misinformation floating around of late, and I'm beginning to get sick of it.

I don't care if you aren't a Calvinist. I don't care all that much if you reject what Calvinist believe. I don't care if you argue against it. I really don't even care much if you label it heresy! But I do care that you are spreading false things about what it is that we believe.

 

[russell55]

And honestly, if I believed what some people on this thread seem to think Calvinists believe, I'd be the first to slap a heretic label to my own forehead.

But I don't believe those things. I don't know any other Calvinists who believe those things, either.

 

[Ron Arndt]

russell55

Do you know what the "i" and "L" in TULIP of the Calvinist's teachings stand for? The "i" stands for irresistible grace or that the Holy Spirit CANNOT be resisted when a sinner is convicted by the Holy Spirit. The "L" stands for LIMITED atonement or that Christ dies ONLY for the elect and not for the world and so is NOT the Savior of the world.

Russell, I DO know what Calvinism teaches, believe me. Somewhere along the line you have missed these two letters in the TULIP of Calvinism.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
Scott

I have answered you and others about the false teachings of Calvinism in my previous posts and from scripture as well. Calvinists denies Christ is the Savior of the world.John 4:42 And that the Holy Spirit can be resisted, when the gospel is preached.Acts 7:51.

If you have answered me I either don't recall it, it is very recent, or you did so under another name. If you would, please PM me and point me to a response by you that addressed my arguments point by point.

 

[OldRegular]

I notice that those who choose to make Salvation the work of man ignore Scripture that teaches otherwise. The truth is that Scripture teaches that God chose certain unto Salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world and He will bring those so chosen to Salvation.

Ephesians 1:3-7

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Now can someone refute the above?

 

[russell55]

The "i" stands for irresistible grace or that the Holy Spirit CANNOT be resisted when a sinner is convicted by the Holy Spirit.

No, it means that the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration, by which he brings people to faith, cannot be resisted because it's an effectual work. It accomplishes what its intended to do. Irresistible grace doesn't mean (and never has meant) that the Holy Spirit's conviction can never be resisted. Irresistible grace only refers to one specific act of the Holy Spirit.

The "L" stands for LIMITED atonement or that Christ dies ONLY for the elect and not for the world and so is NOT the Savior of the world

No, it means that Christ died with the defined purpose of saving the elect (or believers). It doesn't mean that Christ death has no reference to the world. It doesn't mean that he's not the Savior of the world.

I DO know what Calvinism teaches, believe me.

If that is so, why are the Calvinists here telling you that you don't? Do you think they are lying to you about what they believe?

If that is so, why is Charles Hodge's (one of the great Calvinist theologians) explanation of definite atonement so much different from what you attribute to Calvinism. Is he misrepresenting what he--as a Calvinist--believes?

If that is so, why is does John Piper's (another Calvinist's) explanation of irresistible grace include the statement that

The doctrine of irresistible grace does not mean that every influence of the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted.

Is John Piper misrepresenting what he--as a Calvinist--believes?

I'd leave you alone, except that the opening post asked for info about what Calvinists believe, and you are spreading a whole lot of misinformation, and the opening poster may not know enough about it to recognize misinformation when he/she reads it.

 

[Ron Arndt]

OldRegular

Of course God chose his elect BEFORE the foundation of the world. But he never chose them against THEIR WILL.For John 5:40 and Rev 22:17 state only those who are WILLING, do come to Christ. God foreknew who would be willing, but that is not the same as God coercing those who came. That is the difference.God hogties no one into heaven. WHOSOEVER WILLS may come.Rev 22;17

 

[russell55]

God hogties no one into heaven. WHOSOEVER WILLS may come.

And why in the world do you think any Calvinsit would disagree with this?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
I notice that those who choose to make Salvation the work of man ignore Scripture that teaches otherwise. The truth is that Scripture teaches that God chose certain unto Salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world and He will bring those so chosen to Salvation.

Ephesians 1:3-7

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Now can someone refute the above?

I hope that you posted this for our amusement! Most surely you are not actually quoting this passage to support the doctrine that “God chose certain unto Salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world and He will bring those so chosen to Salvation.”

My dear readers who may be just beginning to read the Bible,

The passage quoted above is a fragment taken from one very long sentence in the New Testament, a sentence that belongs to the genre of literature known as doxologies—a type of eulogy. Here is the complete sentence, properly punctuated to accurately translate the concepts expressed in the Greek text from which it is translated,

Eph. 1:3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:
4. even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
5. having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:
7. in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trepasses, according to the riches of his grace,
8. which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9. making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him
10. unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say,
11. in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;
12. to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ:
13. in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14. which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory. (ASV)

Anyone who has watched funerals portrayed on television or actually attended them for himself knows first hand that eulogies present only one side of a multifaceted picture and that they are not intended to present the full truth in an objective manner. Therefore, to attempt to derive or defend doctrines on the basis of eulogistic passages in the Bible is totally absurd.

 

[Scott J]

That passage provides a "facet" that calvinism accounts for and others don't.

To attempt to explain it away because one doesn't like what it says is the thing that is "totally absurd"... but I am not surprised when some people want to explain things in scripture away when they don't like the implications.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
OldRegular

Of course God chose his elect BEFORE the foundation of the world. But he never chose them against THEIR WILL.For John 5:40 and Rev 22:17 state only those who are WILLING, do come to Christ. God foreknew who would be willing, but that is not the same as God coercing those who came. That is the difference.God hogties no one into heaven. WHOSOEVER WILLS may come.Rev 22;17

It is foolish to argue that God choses someone to salvation before the foundation of the world against their will. Before I was born I had no will. It is similarly foolish to argue that God coerced someone to be saved. Something called regeneration or the "rebirth" occurs. This regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit as discussed in Ephesians 2:1-5[NKJV]:

1. And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2. in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3. among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Various forms of expression are employed in the Scriptures, to denote the change that occurs at the new birth or regeneration:

It is taking away the heart of stone, and giving a heart of flesh, a new heart.

Ezekiel 36:26, KJV
26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

It is putting the law in the heart.

Hebrews 8:10, KJV
10. For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

It is quickening or making alive.

John 6:63, KJV
63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

John 5:21, KJV
21. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

It is a resurrection from the spiritual death.

John 5:25, KJV
25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John Dagg in his Manual of Theology, pages 277ff] writes of regeneration or the new birth as follows:

“So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed”

2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Dagg further notes:

“The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”

“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”

 

[Ron Arndt]

OldRegular

OldRegular

Do you know what regenerated means? It means to be begotten of born. You are trying to tell me that a person is born again or regenerated BEFORE they believe the gospel. But the bible does NOT teach that, Calvinism does. One believes so that they can be be born again by the Holy Spirit. If one was born again or regenerated BEFORE they believed, then they would not have to believe to begin with.

Please read John 1:12-13. Here it plainly says those THAT RECEIVED HIM, to them was given THE POWER to believe in his name. These same people who received him and believed in him were then BORN OF GOD. They were not born of God first and then received him and believed on Jesus, but it is the other way around.

Also I John 5:1 says whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ IS born of God.FIRST comes believing and THEN the new birth. Also in Eph 1:13 Paul the apostle clearly states that when a person trusts in the gospel it IS THEN that one is sealed with the Holy Spirit.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
OldRegular

Do you know what regenerated means? It means to be begotten of born. You are trying to tell me that a person is born again or regenerated BEFORE they believe the gospel. But the bible does NOT teach that, Calvinism does. One believes so that they can be be born again by the Holy Spirit. If one was born again or regenerated BEFORE they believed, then they would not have to believe to begin with.

That is exactly what I am saying because that is what Scripture teaches. You need to read the verses in Ephesians 2 that follow those I poated above. For simplicity I will post the entire passage:

Ephesians 2:1-10

1. And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2. in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3. among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7. that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9. not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Please note that in Verse 2:1 we are told that He made us alive when we were dead. No mention of faith for the simple reason that one who is Spiritually Dead can no more believe than one who is physically dead can breathe. Note that in Verse 2.4, 5 we are again told that God because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive. Again no mention of faith for the simple reason that one who is Spiritually Dead can no more believe than one who is physically dead can raise himself from the dead.

Now notice that once God has made us spiritually alive, regenerated, born again He gives us the faith by which we respond to the Gospel.

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
Please read John 1:12-13. Here it plainly says those THAT RECEIVED HIM, to them was given THE POWER to believe in his name. These same people who received him and believed in him were then BORN OF GOD. They were not born of God first and then received him and believed on Jesus, but it is the other way around.

You are correct. Those who have received Him, who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, are given the "power" or Faith to believe in Him.

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
Also I John 5:1 says whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ IS born of God. FIRST comes believing and THEN the new birth. Also in Eph 1:13 Paul the apostle clearly states that when a person trusts in the gospel it IS THEN that one is sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Again whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ IS born of God. Conversely only those who are born of God believe that Jesus is the Christ.

Also please note the words of Jesus Christ in John 10:25-29

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

Those who were not the sheep of Jesus Christ did not believe Him. Those who were His sheep, who had been regenerated, did believe Him and followed Him.

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
OldRegular

OldRegular

Do you know what regenerated means? It means to be begotten of born. You are trying to tell me that a person is born again or regenerated BEFORE they believe the gospel. But the bible does NOT teach that, Calvinism does. One believes so that they can be be born again by the Holy Spirit. If one was born again or regenerated BEFORE they believed, then they would not have to believe to begin with.

Please read John 1:12-13. Here it plainly says those THAT RECEIVED HIM, to them was given THE POWER to believe in his name. These same people who received him and believed in him were then BORN OF GOD. They were not born of God first and then received him and believed on Jesus, but it is the other way around.

Also I John 5:1 says whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ IS born of God.FIRST comes believing and THEN the new birth. Also in Eph 1:13 Paul the apostle clearly states that when a person trusts in the gospel it IS THEN that one is sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Ron,

I love it that you posted John 1:12 - now, how about the next verse?

"who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Did you read that, Ron??? Not of the will of man? Not of the will of the flesh? But of God?

Sounds like a Calvinistic postion, doesn't it?

This is getting funny...

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by OldRegular:
I notice that those who choose to make Salvation the work of man ignore Scripture that teaches otherwise. The truth is that Scripture teaches that God chose certain unto Salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world and He will bring those so chosen to Salvation.

Ephesians 1:3-7

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Now can someone refute the above?

I hope that you posted this for our amusement! Most surely you are not actually quoting this passage to support the doctrine that “God chose certain unto Salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world and He will bring those so chosen to Salvation.”

My dear readers who may be just beginning to read the Bible,

The passage quoted above is a fragment taken from one very long sentence in the New Testament, a sentence that belongs to the genre of literature known as doxologies—a type of eulogy. Here is the complete sentence, properly punctuated to accurately translate the concepts expressed in the Greek text from which it is translated,

Eph. 1:3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:
4. even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
5. having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:
7. in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trepasses, according to the riches of his grace,
8. which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9. making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him
10. unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say,
11. in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;
12. to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ:
13. in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14. which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory. (ASV)

Anyone who has watched funerals portrayed on television or actually attended them for himself knows first hand that eulogies present only one side of a multifaceted picture and that they are not intended to present the full truth in an objective manner. Therefore, to attempt to derive or defend doctrines on the basis of eulogistic passages in the Bible is totally absurd.

</font>[/QUOTE]You have no logical basis for comparing the passage from Ephesians to a eulogy other than the fact you are unable to refute it!

 

[SAMPLEWOW]

WOW! You folks have a lot to say on this subject. I've learned a lot that I didn't know before.
I only hope you all can still be friends after all this talk.

 

[Craigbythesea]

OldRegular wrote,

You have no logical basis for comparing the passage from Ephesians to a eulogy other than the fact you are unable to refute it!

Are you denying the fact that a doxology is a type of eulogy?

You are quite right, however, that I can not refute a doxology in the Bible. However, the fact that it is a doxology makes it ludicrously absurd to use it as a proof text for a non-biblical doctrine.

 

[bjonson]

Craigbythesea,

It amazes me how you can call Calvin's teaching on predestination and election a "non-biblical doctrine." Why don't you enlighten us on what you do with the dozens (maybe hundreds) of texts that deal with God's calling, election and predestination?

 

[Robert J Hutton]

Mr Scott J accuses me of not knowing what Calvinism is. I will ignore the obvious attempt to provoke me and assure him of my forgiveness on that. However, I have spent years studying the subject and am well aware of what Calvinism teaches.

Kind regards to all (including Scott J whom I esteem highly for love's sake).

Bob