What is your definition of a Calvinist?

[Revmitchell]

Except that is not how God designed it. You do not find that in Scripture. Christ laid his life down for the sheep.

Now that is a reasonable argument and it is a good one. It's wrong but it is a good one.

Jesus also said "Mat 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Context is important. You are misapplying that verse because you have divorced it from its context.

 

[JonC]

If faith in His son is the condition that God has made that leads to salvation then where is the problem with that condition. You seem to have a problem with scripture.

What he is ignoring is that they believe God meets this condition for those who believe (see the first two Articles of Remonstrance) and take the word "foreknowledge" literally. It's just Aaron being Aaron.

 

[Reformed1689]

Now that is a reasonable argument and it is a good one. It's wrong but it is a good one.

Jesus also said "Mat 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Context is important. You are misapplying that verse because you have divorced it from its context.

Rev Rev Rev, it is not me that is divorcing it from context. Jesus is right that he was sent to minister to Israel. That was His primary earthly mission. To serve among the Jews and to redeem the elect as was foretold. However, in John 10 he says that he has sheep that are not of this fold. So yes, the sheep in John 10 are the elect both Jewish Elect and Gentile Elect.

 

[Aaron]

Not if a condition for election is for those to be elect are not to merit election.

.

IOW, not if the condition is no conditions?

 

[canadyjd]

Now that is a reasonable argument and it is a good one. It's wrong but it is a good one.

Jesus also said "Mat 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Context is important. You are misapplying that verse because you have divorced it from its context.

Jesus also said He had “other sheep not of this fold” meaning Gentiles. He lays down His life for them as well.

Edit to add: the see this point has already been made above. Sorry to make it again.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Except that is not how God designed it. You do not find that in Scripture. Christ laid his life down for the sheep.

Did you forget all these other scriptures:
1Ti_2:6; Isa_53:6 for all
Heb_2:9; 1Ti_4:10 every man
Joh_3:17 the world
Joh_3:15 whoever believes in Him
Rom_5:6 the ungodly
2Pe_2:1 false teachers
Mat_20:28 many

Did Christ Jesus die for His sheep YES but you have overlooked what scripture tells us about all that He died for. He dies for "all" not just "some" as you would have us believe.

 

[Reformed1689]

and take the word "foreknowledge" literally.

Hmm, ok. I mean foreknowledge is an English word, and usage determines meaning, and the Bible was not written in English, but ok, let's play your game.

Let's assume you first are talking about foreknew, not foreknowledge. If I am wrong please correct me. Second, foreknew, in the ESV, is only used twice. Romans 8:29 and Romans 11:2. The Greek Lemma is προγινώσκω.

According to BDAG, this lemma has two main definitions:

1. To know beforehand or in advance, have foreknowledge of.
2. To choose beforehand.

Now, even if you want to go with definition number one, which is what I assume you are wanting to do, let's look at that in the context of Romans 8:29 and see how that works out. Replacing the word (ESV) with the definition that would say this:
For those whom he had foreknowledge of and knew beforehand in advance, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son.

Now, that still doesn't give you foreknowledge of a choice they made. It is saying foreknowledge of a person, an individual. So to look at foreknowledge literally still does not help your cause at all in Romans 8:29.

Now in Romans 11:2, let's see how that would write out.

God has not rejected his people whom he knew beforehand, in advance.

That still does not help your cause.

 

[JonC]

Did you forget all these other scriptures:
1Ti_2:6; Isa_53:6 for all
Heb_2:9; 1Ti_4:10 every man
Joh_3:17 the world
Joh_3:15 whoever believes in Him
Rom_5:6 the ungodly
2Pe_2:1 false teachers
Mat_20:28 many

Did Christ Jesus die for His sheep YES but you have overlooked what scripture tells us about all that He died for. He dies for "all" not just "some" as you would have us believe.

You have to realize many Calvinists use a lot of "double-speak".

"Whole World" means "the elect in the whole world".
"Foreknowledge" means "had a relationship with" rather than "know beforehand" or even to "choose beforehand"
"For" means "instead of".
"Cup" means "wrath'.
"All" means "all of the elect".
"Forsake" means "separated from".
"We esteemed" means "God esteemed".
"Propitiation" means "experienced wrath".

And if Scripture cannot fit with those changes then it is just "mystery".

 

[Reformed1689]

Did you forget all these other scriptures:
1Ti_2:6; Isa_53:6 for all
Heb_2:9; 1Ti_4:10 every man
Joh_3:17 the world
Joh_3:15 whoever believes in Him
Rom_5:6 the ungodly
2Pe_2:1 false teachers
Mat_20:28 many

Did Christ Jesus die for His sheep YES but you have overlooked what scripture tells us about all that He died for. He dies for "all" not just "some" as you would have us believe.

Nope, I have not forgotten any of those.

Is. 53, written to God's chosen people, not the entire world.
1 Tim. 2:6 all types of people.
Hebrews 2:9 again, this does not necessitate individuals.
1 Tim 4:10: All people refers to the groups, and those that believe refer to the specific individuals.
John 3:17 Again, why do you replace world with individuals?
John 3:15, correct, he died for whoever believes in him.
Romans 5:6, who was that written to, not everyone. Christians, also known as the elect. It does not say Christ died for ALL of the ungodly.
2 Peter 2:1 is out of context. It is not saying Christ paid for their sins.
Mat20:28 since when does many equal all individuals?

 

[Aaron]

If faith in His son is the condition that God has made that leads to salvation then where is the problem with that condition. You seem to have a problem with scripture.

Yeah, that's always the accusation, but it's really you with the problem. Your pride will not allow you to accept the truth that God will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy, and whom He will, He hardeneth.

But if you want to talk about faith, according to Scripture, how is faith imparted?

(This thread will be closed before the conversation is done, anyway. The administration prides themselves on stopping lively discussions and making the pleasant experience of boiling an issue down to it's precipitate a laborious tedium.)

 

[Silverhair]

IOW, not if the condition is no conditions?

The condition is faith.
2Ti_3:15 salvation through faith
Rom_3:22 righteousness of God through faith
Rom_3:30 justify the uncircumcised through faith
Gal_2:16 justified by faith in Christ
Gal_3:14 receive the promise of the Spirit through faith
Gal 3:26 sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith
Eph 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith
Col 2:12 you were also raised up with Him through faith

Sure looks like faith is a condition.

 

[Aaron]

That just shows that you do not really understand Arminianism. From what I have read it is much closer to biblical theology than calvinism.

K.

 

[Reformed1689]

The condition is faith.
2Ti_3:15 salvation through faith
Rom_3:22 righteousness of God through faith
Rom_3:30 justify the uncircumcised through faith
Gal_2:16 justified by faith in Christ
Gal_3:14 receive the promise of the Spirit through faith
Gal 3:26 sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith
Eph 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith
Col 2:12 you were also raised up with Him through faith

Sure looks like faith is a condition.

Minor detail, faith given by God....

 

[Silverhair]

Nope, I have not forgotten any of those.

Is. 53, written to God's chosen people, not the entire world.
1 Tim. 2:6 all types of people.
Hebrews 2:9 again, this does not necessitate individuals.
1 Tim 4:10: All people refers to the groups, and those that believe refer to the specific individuals.
John 3:17 Again, why do you replace world with individuals?
John 3:15, correct, he died for whoever believes in him.
Romans 5:6, who was that written to, not everyone. Christians, also known as the elect. It does not say Christ died for ALL of the ungodly.
2 Peter 2:1 is out of context. It is not saying Christ paid for their sins.
Mat20:28 since when does many equal all individuals?

Since you continue to read into the scripture what you want to find you will never come to a correct understanding of the text of scripture. You will continue to be as lost as a ball in tall grass.

Someday you will have to take off those calvinist blinders if you ever hope to find the truth in scripture.

 

[Silverhair]

Yeah, that's always the accusation, but it's really you with the problem. Your pride will not allow you to accept the truth that God will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy, and whom He will, He hardeneth.

But if you want to talk about faith, according to Scripture, how is faith imparted?

(This thread will be closed before the conversation is done, anyway. The administration prides themselves on stopping lively discussions and making the pleasant experience of boiling an issue down to it's precipitate a laborious tedium.)

You calvinist are the ones that think God has to give you faith so you can believe and that after you are saved. That is not a biblical concept but you will hold to it.

 

[Silverhair]

Minor detail, faith given by God....

Then you hold to the errant idea that you are saved before you have faith. So much for no calvinist thinks that way.

 

[Reformed1689]

Since you continue to read into the scripture what you want to find you will never come to a correct understanding of the text of scripture. You will continue to be as lost as a ball in tall grass.

Someday you will have to take off those calvinist blinders if you ever hope to find the truth in scripture.

So you don't care to interact with anything I have said and instead just accuse of reading into Scripture. But one could easily say the same thing about you. It says world and you read individuals. That's not what it says.

 

[Reformed1689]

Then you hold to the errant idea that you are saved before you have faith. So much for no calvinist thinks that way.

When have I said that? Never.

 

[Aaron]

When ones view of the atonement is wrong they will usually say that "calvinism is the gospel" or some such silly think.

There's no such thing as Calvinism. No one sat down to codify 'Calvinism' like the disciples of Arminius did their Five Points of Remonstrance, or their objections to the Gospel breaking forth from the fangs of Romanism.

It's just that Calvin was a principal player (like Luther) in the drama that unfolded, and the most noteworthy, and the first in modern history to set down in order and expound on the main tenets of the Christian faith in his magnum opus, The Institutes of the Christian Religion, which follows the outline of the Apostles' Creed.

It seemed new to those who walked in the darkness of Rome, so it got labled with Calvin's name, but the Morning Star of the Reformation was John Wycliffe, and he was a Calvinist three hundred years prior to the advent of John Calvin, and twelve hundred years before that, was Paul.

Paul was the first in the history of the world to expound at length on the doctrine of election, or the Doctrines of Grace, as they are called now.

So there is no such thing as Calvinism. There is no Calvinist church, like there is a Lutheran church. And there is no Pauline Church. There is only the Gospel.

 

[Reformed1689]

So there is no such thing as Calvinism. There is no Calvinist church, like there is a Lutheran church. And there is no Pauline Church. There is only the Gospel.

At the end of the day, absolutely.

Calvinism (soteriology) is just another word for biblical teaching on salvation.