What is Your View of The Atonement By Jesus Christ?

[Yeshua1]

You are partially right. God's anger is perfect, holy and just. It is, I believe, often misunderstood as something alienated from His love. But God's anger at sin expresses His own nature and holiness.

You are wrong that I should tolerate as serious repeated, foolish and unsupported remarks that question the very nature of God. I could have been more tactful, but past experience shows tact simply doesn't work with some.

Insofar as your last comment, it does not make sense. God is not a slave to His attributes, but instead His attributes demonstrate His nature. Sin us not something upon which wrath can be focused (God cannot punish the sin, only the sinner). And pride has nothing to do with disagreeing with your theory. That's just smoke to try and get someone to back down through intimidation. I disagree because no passage has shown his view to be correct. It's a matter of Scripture, not pride.

The wrath of God is directed upon sin and sinners, due to him being by very nature holy, correct?

 

[TCassidy]

The wrath of God is directed upon sin and sinners, due to him being by very nature holy, correct?

Scripture?

 

[agedman]

I continue to bring up various scriptures, but you refuse to accept that others such as calvin, and Berkhoff, and Hodgh, and so many others accepted PST as the biblical truth, as you keep on holding to NT wright and his wrong theology on this issue!

Have you?

Perhaps I am not remembering correctly, but was there abundant Scriptures posted by you?

I am not attempting to demean, but to honestly ask.

Because I might have switched your response and confused it with another poster who has yet to show much Scriptures in contention on this matter.

Like yesterday, I woke up not remembering how to spell "maybe."

Seriously! I had to consult my dictionary!

So, it would not be out of disregard or disparage I ask, it is to exercise the recall.

 

[Van]

Ransom to Satan Theory
Recapitulation Theory
Commercial Theory
Moral Influence Theory
Accident Theory
Example (Martyr) Theory
Governmental Theory
Substitution
(From, Paul Enns, Moody Handbook of Theology)

My view of the "Atonement of Jesus Christ" is two-fold. First, what Jesus accomplished when He died on the cross, and second, what is accomplished when God transfers a sinner into the kingdom of His Son. Theories that conflate these two very different accomplishments just confuse the issue and hinder truth.

First we must ask, who did Jesus die for, all mankind or just the previously chosen elect individuals? The answer of course is both, Christ died as a ransom for all which includes saved and to be saved as well as those unsaved. When Christ died, He became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2. John uses "world" to refer to fallen mankind. When God accepted His sacrifice, He became the means of salvation from God's wrath, hence the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. His substutionary sacrifice paid the price for everyone's sins, such that anyone and everyone transferred into Christ is forgiven and their sin burden (what God holds against that individual) is removed by the circumcision of Christ. When they are transferred into Christ, and undergo the washing of regeneration (they are made alive together with Christ) the are "at one" with Christ.

When you see the word "atonement" in a text, put "subsititutionary sacrifice" next to it if what Christ accomplished on the cross is in view, and put "reconciliation" next to it if what is accomplished when God transfers an individual into Christ is in view.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

No. A repentant faith is a gift from God. I don't give God a gift, He gives me a gift. "For the gift of God is eternal life." Not "For the gift of Tom is eternal life."

So, God does the "repenting and believing" for us? The "turning from sin to Christ", which you rightly describe as an "action", is done be whom exactly? I take it from your reasoning, that humans are basically machines that do nothing? So when people rebel against God, whether saved or lost, God is doing this for them?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

My view of the "Atonement of Jesus Christ" is two-fold. First, what Jesus accomplished when He died on the cross, and second, what is accomplished when God transfers a sinner into the kingdom of His Son. Theories that conflate these two very different accomplishments just confuse the issue and hinder truth.

First we must ask, who did Jesus die for, all mankind or just the previously chosen elect individuals? The answer of course is both, Christ died as a ransom for all which includes saved and to be saved as well as those unsaved. When Christ died, He became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2. John uses "world" to refer to fallen mankind. When God accepted His sacrifice, He became the means of salvation from God's wrath, hence the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. His substutionary sacrifice paid the price for everyone's sins, such that anyone and everyone transferred into Christ is forgiven and their sin burden (what God holds against that individual) is removed by the circumcision of Christ. When they are transferred into Christ, and undergo the washing of regeneration (they are made alive together with Christ) the are "at one" with Christ.

When you see the word "atonement" in a text, put "subsititutionary sacrifice" next to it if what Christ accomplished on the cross is in view, and put "reconciliation" next to it if what is accomplished when God transfers an individual into Christ is in view.

You make your view sound like "universal salvation", as you have omitted REPENTANCE and FAITH!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Scripture?

1 Peter 2:24 for starters

 

[Yeshua1]

Scripture?

Psalm 7:11. Ask Jonathen Edwards on this topic!

 

[Yeshua1]

Have you?

Perhaps I am not remembering correctly, but was there abundant Scriptures posted by you?

I am not attempting to demean, but to honestly ask.

Because I might have switched your response and confused it with another poster who has yet to show much Scriptures in contention on this matter.

Like yesterday, I woke up not remembering how to spell "maybe."

Seriously! I had to consult my dictionary!

So, it would not be out of disregard or disparage I ask, it is to exercise the recall.

I have mentioned Jesus in the garden, various times Cup/Bowl of wrath wassin the scriptures, and Isaiah 53.

 

[Van]

You make your view sound like "universal salvation", as you have omitted REPENTANCE and FAITH!

If you think God transfers everyone into Christ, then you need to support that biblically. If you cannot, then you are misrepresenting my view of the word "atonement."

I did not address the basis God uses to choose individuals and transfer them into Christ.

Please address my actual view which is in direct response to your opening post.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

If you think God transfers everyone into Christ, then you need to support that biblically. If you cannot, then you are misrepresenting my view of the word "atonement."

I did not address the basis God uses to choose individuals and transfer them into Christ.

Please address my actual view which is in direct response to your opening post.

yes, I have read what you have said, but there is no mention of REPENTANCE and FAITH. can you please address this?

 

[agedman]

I have mentioned Jesus in the garden, various times Cup/Bowl of wrath wassin the scriptures, and Isaiah 53.

Thank you!

 

[agedman]

You make your view sound like "universal salvation", as you have omitted REPENTANCE and FAITH!

Just to clarify.

Do you place repentance is a must to have salvation granted, or is it the result of being granted?

Do you place faith as humanly attained, or do you place faith as that gift endowed by God?

 

[Van]

I did not see you withdraw your false and misleading representation of my view. Truth matters. If you want to learn what the bible says, you must interact with truth.

What is the basis God uses to choose individuals and transfer them into Christ? Do not tell me what your opinion is, but rather what scripture says, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, or James 2:5?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Just to clarify.

Do you place repentance is a must to have salvation granted, or is it the result of being granted?

Do you place faith as humanly attained, or do you place faith as that gift endowed by God?

Repentance is a pre-requirement for salvation which comes from the heart of the sinner, when responding to the convicting of the Holy Spirit of their sins and need for Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour. This "faith" is part of the Holy Spirit's convicting work in the heart of the sinner. I see no Scripture that says anyone is "granted" repentance first, and then they accept Jesus as their Saviour, and are "born-again". Both are exactly the same thing as Titus 3:5 teaches

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I did not see you withdraw your false and misleading representation of my view. Truth matters. If you want to learn what the bible says, you must interact with truth.

What is the basis God uses to choose individuals and transfer them into Christ? Do not tell me what your opinion is, but rather what scripture says, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, or James 2:5?

repentance from sin and belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, as Saviour!

 

[TCassidy]

So, God does the "repenting and believing" for us?

Why is it that your initial response so often is so utterly dishonest that it is beyond belief?

NOBODY, especially me, has said or implied that "God does the repenting and believing for us." Shame on you!

The "turning from sin to Christ", which you rightly describe as an "action", is done be whom exactly?

That Grace gift of repentant faith is given by God enabling me to believe/repent.

I take it from your reasoning, that humans are basically machines that do nothing?

Then you, once again, take it wrong. I have never suggested any such thing. Again, why is your first impulse to respond dishonestly?

So when people rebel against God, whether saved or lost, God is doing this for them?

Another dishonest response that no honest person would ever conclude I said or suggested any such thing.

May the Lord rebuke your dishonest responses.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Insofar as your last comment, it does not make sense. God is not a slave to His attributes, but instead His attributes demonstrate His nature. Sin us [sic] not something upon which wrath can be focused (God cannot punish the sin, only the sinner). And pride has nothing to do with disagreeing with your theory. That's just smoke to try and get someone to back down through intimidation. I disagree because no passage has shown his view to be correct. It's a matter of Scripture, not pride.

There are certain things that God cannot do; He cannot deny Himself. He cannot be other that angry with sinners, but His wrath is not arbitrary; it is a settled and righteous anger (Psalm 7:11) against sin and sinners. Your smokescreen concerning sin and sinners is, as I've stated so many times before, a false dichotomy. 'For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust [sinners]' (1 Peter 3:18).

 

[TCassidy]

Repentance is a pre-requirement for salvation which comes from the heart of the sinner, when responding to the convicting of the Holy Spirit of their sins and need for Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

This "faith" is part of the Holy Spirit's convicting work in the heart of the sinner.

Yes, as I have been saying all along, faith is a gift from God. Not something we have or do, but something God has given us that enables us to believe/repent/obey.

I see no Scripture that says anyone is "granted" repentance first, and then they accept Jesus as their Saviour, and are "born-again".

And again, you are either amazingly ignorant or amazingly dishonest in your response.

Nobody has said that "anyone is "granted" repentance first, and then they accept Jesus as their Saviour, and are "born-again"."

You have it just backward. They are regenerated (given a new living, believing, heart) and given the gift of faith/repentance, and now receive/accept the things of Jesus their Savior which, before, they did not receive/accept, they though spiritual things were stupid, and could not understand them.

Salvation: All of God. None of me.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Yes, as I have been saying all along, faith is a gift from God. Not something we have or do, but something God has given us that enables us to believe/repent/obey.

And again, you are either amazingly ignorant or amazingly dishonest in your response.

Nobody has said that "anyone is "granted" repentance first, and then they accept Jesus as their Saviour, and are "born-again"."

You have it just backward. They are regenerated (given a new living, believing, heart) and given the gift of faith/repentance, and now receive/accept the things of Jesus their Savior which, before, they did not receive/accept, they though spiritual things were stupid, and could not understand them.

Salvation: All of God. None of me.

I think that you don't even understand your OWN position! IF, as you say that God first "regenerates" the heart of the sinner, thus enabling them to have the faith to get saved. Then this "action" of ones "repentance" is the result of God enabling the sinner, and not of themselves! This, my friend is the SAME as God doing the repenting for you, as you have no say in it! It is that simple!