Calvibaptist
New Member
Is that like vestigal organ...like my appendix? </font>[/QUOTE]Finally. Another Baptist with a warped sense of humor.
Good one. </font>[/QUOTE]Is this in any way related to Vestal Goodman who travels with Bill Gaither?
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What kind of virgin will you be?
- Thread starter James_Newman
- Start date
Good one. </font>[/QUOTE]Is this in any way related to Vestal Goodman who travels with Bill Gaither?
Calvibaptist
New Member
You know, the Catholic Church complained to Martin Luther that if he got the Bible into the hands of the people in their own language, there would be all kinds of wierd views going on out there. I read this and I think that maybe they were right. It turns out that the wierd view you came up with is actually Catholicism.
Calvibaptist
New Member
Of course, if you don't believe in dispensationalism, this parable has to do with being ready for the second coming. If you are unready (unbeliever), you are left out of the kingdom (heaven). If you are ready (believer) you enter the kingdom. You have to really twist Scripture to get believers suffering judgment for their sins at the hands of God who told them that there is therefore now no condemnation for them who are in Christ Jesus; the same God who told them:
Romans 8:33-34 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Romans 8:33-34 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
James_Newman
New Member
I think maybe we should start another thread to discuss purgatory and why it is not what I am talking about. Personally I always thought that works salvation was a catholic doctrine, but I think that is where you will have to run to deny the existence of the carnal believer and judgment for same.
Calvibaptist
New Member
And all means all and world means world. I love you people who say words have to mean exactly the same things in entirely different contexts.
Calvibaptist
New Member
Justification is by faith. Final judgement is by works. A true believer (one who is justified by faith) will have works. Have you never read James, man? What about Philippians?
Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Is that like vestigal organ...like my appendix? </font>[/QUOTE]Finally. Another Baptist with a warped sense of humor.
Good one. </font>[/QUOTE]What?? You ain't read my posts?? At least on the warped sense of humor???
I have been called insane, even. And for the record, insanity is hereditary; you get it from your kids!
Ed
FTR, as to the topic, I am not going to be any kind of the virgin, as spoken of in Matthew, here. Rather, I'm definitely a part of the body of Christ, i.e., the groom, and maybe (ain't definitely decided on this yet, for I'm not sure I'm clear in my own mind on it.) we are "the bride of Christ", as well. These "Ten virgins" were guests, at this celebration. I'm to be a participant at and in the 'Marriage Supper' of the Lamb!
In His grace,
Ed
In His grace,
Ed
James_Newman
New Member
If you would apply James to believers as it was written instead of making every thing apply to the common salvation that the readers of James would already possess it would make much more sense. James didn't say that whoever is justified by faith would have works, he said justification was by works. The truth is there are two justifications.
Romans 4:2-3
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Genesis 15:5-6
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Here is the first justification. By faith, Abraham believed and the Lord counted it to him for righteousness. Nothing but believing was required.
James 2:21
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Genesis 22:16-18
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
The second justification occured when Abraham, believing God, obeyed the command to sacrifice his son. God pronounces an additional blessing upon Abraham, saying in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed. And what else did He tell Abraham? Did He say 'now I know that you are a true believer?'
Genesis 22:12
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Believers need not fear that God will take back His promise, that whosoever believes will be raised up on the last day. But reigning with Jesus in His kingdom is conditioned upon fearing God, and keeping His commandments.
Ecclesiastes 12:13
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
This is still the conclusion of the whole matter.
Romans 4:2-3
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Genesis 15:5-6
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Here is the first justification. By faith, Abraham believed and the Lord counted it to him for righteousness. Nothing but believing was required.
James 2:21
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Genesis 22:16-18
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
The second justification occured when Abraham, believing God, obeyed the command to sacrifice his son. God pronounces an additional blessing upon Abraham, saying in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed. And what else did He tell Abraham? Did He say 'now I know that you are a true believer?'
Genesis 22:12
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Believers need not fear that God will take back His promise, that whosoever believes will be raised up on the last day. But reigning with Jesus in His kingdom is conditioned upon fearing God, and keeping His commandments.
Ecclesiastes 12:13
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
This is still the conclusion of the whole matter.
Calvibaptist
New Member
James, fearing God (as well as knowing God) is the same as believing in God. Your example proves nothing.
Your entire post supports the point that I made earlier. Justification is by faith. Final judgement (before God) is by works. James' point is that if you have no works, you have no faith, therefore no justification.
Your entire post supports the point that I made earlier. Justification is by faith. Final judgement (before God) is by works. James' point is that if you have no works, you have no faith, therefore no justification.
James_Newman
New Member
Each parable stands on its own, we can't just mix them all together. The common thread is Jesus teaching on the kingdom. Jesus came preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and says in revelation that the gospel of the kingdom will go out into all nations for a testimony and then the end shall come. That gospel is the same gospel that Jesus preached, the same one that John the Baptist preached, it's the one that the two witnesses will preach.
Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
We must repent of our sin to enter into that kingdom. Jesus Christ came to die not only to pay for our sin, but to give us the power to live holy. It is all by His grace, but we have got to repent and start believing what He said.
Calvibaptist
New Member
Ed,
Are you referencing the teaching of the "Baptist Bride?"
James_Newman
New Member
No, James' point was justification is by works.
Calvibaptist
New Member
No, James' point was justification is by works. </font>[/QUOTE]James 2:18 Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
James_Newman
New Member
So you can play the 'faith=works' game, but we have clear testimony of scripture that faith!=works.
Romans 4:4-5
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Reward is also not the same thing as gift. But I understand why you have to mush all these concepts together in order to get out from under the clear teaching of a coming judgment for sanctified believers.
My question to you is, if faith is only true faith when it is mingled with works, what makes you think that you have it?
Romans 4:4-5
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Reward is also not the same thing as gift. But I understand why you have to mush all these concepts together in order to get out from under the clear teaching of a coming judgment for sanctified believers.
My question to you is, if faith is only true faith when it is mingled with works, what makes you think that you have it?
Calvibaptist
New Member
Did I ever say faith=works? I quoted James as saying faith is shown by works. The two are far apart.
I don't deny coming judgment for believers. I deny that the judgment will find anything but good works that have been "wrought by God."
John 3:17-21 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
There are two types of people in this passage:
1) Those who believe
2) Those who do not believe.
Those who believe are not condemned. They do the truth and come to the light. Their deed are clearly seen that they have been done in God.
Those who do not believe are condemned already. They hate the light because it exposes the fact that their deeds are evil and they run from it.
There is not a third class of people called unfaithful believers who have come to the light and then don't have good works and are judged for a period of time to burn off their sins so they can acceptably enter the kingdom. That is not what the Scripture (here or anywhere else) says.
I don't deny coming judgment for believers. I deny that the judgment will find anything but good works that have been "wrought by God."
John 3:17-21 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
There are two types of people in this passage:
1) Those who believe
2) Those who do not believe.
Those who believe are not condemned. They do the truth and come to the light. Their deed are clearly seen that they have been done in God.
Those who do not believe are condemned already. They hate the light because it exposes the fact that their deeds are evil and they run from it.
There is not a third class of people called unfaithful believers who have come to the light and then don't have good works and are judged for a period of time to burn off their sins so they can acceptably enter the kingdom. That is not what the Scripture (here or anywhere else) says.
Calvibaptist
New Member
And why do you believe that faith producing works is the same as faith being works?
Hope of Glory
New Member
John the Baptizer also came preaching the gospel of the Kingdom. They didn't teach the gospel of salvation; that was old hat to the Jews.
Then you are denying the clear teachings of Scripture, as has been shown repeatedly. That is part of teaching a license to sin.
Don't confuse "believe" (verb) with "faith" (noun). Now, "believe" when used as a present, active, participle, can be used as a noun and as a synonym for "faith", but "believe" when used as a noun is simply "beleive".
If you're not producing good fruit, you are not being faithful, but that doesn't mean you're not saved; it means that you are "unbelieving"; you are unfaithful.
James_Newman
New Member
Luke 19:12-27
12 He said therefore, A certain noble man went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
Here is two classes, His 'called' servants and the citizens who hated him, and would not have Him to reign over them.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou laidst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
The servants of the first class have been divided into good, faithful servants and wicked servants. The wicked servant has his portion taken from him and given to the faithful servant.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
And the 'third' class, the citizen enemies, are slain outright. But these never had a portion to lose.
12 He said therefore, A certain noble man went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
Here is two classes, His 'called' servants and the citizens who hated him, and would not have Him to reign over them.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou laidst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
The servants of the first class have been divided into good, faithful servants and wicked servants. The wicked servant has his portion taken from him and given to the faithful servant.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
And the 'third' class, the citizen enemies, are slain outright. But these never had a portion to lose.