What or who is predestinated?

1 John 1:8-9 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

My sins are "under the blood", but, that doesn't mean that I don't still struggle with sin from time to time.

 

Hello Blammo,

I can see you may not agree with my last post, or you for some reason do not want to say you agree. We will drop that part and maybe get back to it later.

Lets try this another way. You posted Romans 4:5

What does it mean to be justified?

Unbelief is the opposite. But unbelief in what? The devil believes there is a God. The devil believes that God has a Son. The devil also believes Christ came to earth, for he temped Christ. So what is meant when it says one must believe? Believe what?


In Christ..James

 

Sorry, you posted this while I was posting..

You say that it is our sins that places us in hell...and it is our sins that we need justified from.....and this is done with the atonement of Christ...the blood...your sins are under His blood. Do you agree?

Yes..we all sin.

please stay with me...this is a good exchange. I'll be back in 1 hour. I need to do a honey-do for me wife.


In Christ...James

 

Jarthur -

No I did not overlook John 3:17 period. I was posting verses that dealt with believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for my sins, was buried, and rose again the third day in total agreement with what was prophesied in the Scriptures. I am justified, not by anything that I have done, but by what He has done for me.

 

Jarthur -

I also need to leave for a bit. I will try to get back to it later this evening. I appreciate the way our current conversation is going. However, I can't help but think you are attempting to corner me. :laugh: But, I promise to be open minded and carefully consider everything you say.

 

Blammo,

We both agree fully with your statement that is now underlined. About your verses...indeed I will agree that you were posting just as you said.

Yes, its pretty easy to see that. The "corner" i mean. Its not going to be that bad though. But being that we have been open with each other, let me just say now.... I will not force my views on you nor could I if I wanted to. You may disagree with part or all of my views. I do hope to show that I base my views of soteriolgy on the Bible. I too, understand that you do the same. I was once in your camp. Yet, i'll not just "say" I understand you and then not listen. I will also be open as you are, and will hear your points.

This one thing it seems clear. We both agree that salvation comes by faith in Christ work or the Cross. It is his blood that covered our sins,... the sins that made us guitly to God and or our way to hell. We now worship Him..yet we still sin, we just are not controlled by our sins but rather live in the Spirit.

In the end, though we may disagree, we should understand each other better.


In Christ...James

 

sorry..I posted this 2 times...my bad

 

Hello Blammo,


So in a long way...I will address this verse..

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

And also we will look at John 3:16.

Thanks for being patient with me.

I just wanted to address one word 1st before we looked at these verses. You brought up atonement, so we looked at it. I think we both agree that the atonement of Christ blood is the payment that God demands for our sins and also is the only payment that can be applied to cover our sins.

*******

Now comes the part where we may disagree. I hold to particular atonement...better known as limited atonement. You say you do not hold to a limited atonement. This point of the so called 5 points is the most hated point. This is the one point that 4 point Calvinist leave out. It mainly has to do with verses you posted. 5 pointers are very much aware of these and other verses, yet they hold to the doctrine. Why?

BTW...this is the point that was the last one I believed. I was a 4 pointer for years. But now that I hold to it, I do not know why I it took so long.

So...if atonement pays for our sins..and I agree that it does..then we both have a doctrine that limits atonement, do we not? That is, unless you hold that all will be saved for Christ died for all. And I’m sure you do not hold to this. My guess is that you limit the atonement to those that believe. Do you limit the atonement this way?

Like I said...i like the word particular better then limited. This was the word used when the men wrote the 5 points years ago. Limited is now used...because of “TULIP”...but does not show the best meaning to the point.


I will be glad to share more on why I hold to particular atonement now, or after I address the verses. That is..if you want to hear more.


In Christ..James

 

Calvinism is often said to show God as being unjust. We have seen in election from other post, that it is Gods mercy that is in action with election. It wasn't justice that led God to provide salvation but the attribute of mercy. Justice is simply each man getting what he deserves and this is where we find mankind before salvation…on their way to hell. Those who go to hell will have nobody to blame but themselves, while those who go to heaven will have nobody to praise but God for he showed mercy.

Romans 9:15-18
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion...Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy and whom He will He hardeneth"

Just as election has mercy as its driving force we also see mercy in the atonement. It is for this reason we get to the root of the doctrines of grace. And this be it…The mercy in the atonement, has as its root love. With no love there is no mercy. Mercy is only a form of love. We then as Calvinist, do not run from verses like John 3:16, (For God so loved the world)we hold them dear for we understand them. In order to understand mercy we must understand love. God is love..is He not?

Then what is meant when it says…”For God so loved the world…”? This speaks of the reason of Christ coming for the act of the atonement and this shows that love is the reason for the atonement. This is Gods mercy in action. Yet Love, what is it? We MUST understand love before we understand this verse. As it turns out, we do not have to guess the meaning of love, the Bible tells us. We will look to the Bible to get that understanding.

The fact is, the love of God is a truth for the saints. This is the reason that Christ died. In Love he came for the atonement. We as sinners before salvation need to have mercy from God in order to deal with our sins. It is our sins that are the object of the coving. It is our sins that Christ died for. Yet the reason is because of love for those He died for.

That which sinners need to have brought before them is that God is Holy and hates sin, the wrath of God should be very real to them. The message then in the Bible is that we need to show sinners their need of Christ. Their absolutely ruined and lost condition, their imminent and awful danger of suffering the wrath to come, the fearful guilt resting upon them in the sight of God. This in no way is the love of God. Love is shown in his mercy to die for OUR sins. The sins of the believer are paid for by the blood of Christ, and we must not miss-use Gods mercy in telling the non-believer he is loved in his sins. It has been customary to say God loves the sinner though He hates his sin. That is a meaningless distinction. Sins are not an object. Sin is an action or thought and is not, unless someone does. Actions/thoughts come from someone that is real and has the life to place those actions in motion, and this is people. You can remove the person and the sin will stop. You can remove the sin and the person will remain. It is the person that sins. We then see that we have sinners against Gods ways, and those that want to follow and worship God. Christ death then is toward US…the believer in love to pay for our sins. In love he choose US. In Love he died for US. He has a bride (US) and He will give His full love to His Bride and not cheat by giving it to those that hate him.

1st a look at the word Love in general and what the Bible says it is. The 1st passage we hear at weddings a lot. 1 Cor. 13 is called the love chapter. While this is a passage to the church, because the fact God is love we can learn a lot about God from reading this chapter. In fact if you read this chapter as if it is talking about Christ you will see the Love of God. Gods love is pure and works.

6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails.

Love does not care for evil, but rather is all about truth. Love never fails. Being that love is the reason for the atonement and the reason Christ came, Christ love is pure and His power is able to save the ones He died for. Love never fails. Love does not work with evil, it is to overcome evil. Love never fails. That means if God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son to die as an atonement for our sins, that because it was Gods love, it will not fail, and all that God died for will be saved. God’s love is pure and was given for the power to over come our guilt as sinners. He came to save those He loved, and it worked. It is finished. The deed is done.


The atonement is a love act. He loves US and He came to die for US. Salvation is a love relationship. He loves US…and we love Him. Yet He loved US before we loved Him. We must see if the Bible supports such claims.

John 14:21, 23
"He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father ... If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him."

Why say "he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father"? Why not say all?

The same limitation is found in Prov. 8:17 "I love them that love Me." Why not say all?


36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him. (John 3:36)

Can God "love" the one on whom His "wrath" abides?

"The love of God which is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:39)
Does verse 39 not place limitations, both in the sphere and objects of His love?

"For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth." (Heb. 12:6)
Does not this verse teach that God's love is restricted to the members of His own family?

Finally, we ask, Is it conceivable that God will love the damned in the Lake of Fire? Yet, if He loves them now He will do so then, seeing that His love knows no change….He is "without variableness or shadow of turning"! So as the damned cross over the edge of the pit and they then know and understand that Christ is real, and they then know that God is in full control, and as they see the smoke of the fire, and see that indeed the path they followed was wrong, if they say, OK, OK..God, I now believe, and if it were true that God died for them and loved them would not God save them at that very moment, being God never changes?

Turning now to John 3:16, it should be evident from the passages just quoted that this verse will not bear the construction usually put upon it, "God so loved the world." Many suppose that this means the entire human race. But "the entire human race" includes all mankind from Adam till the close of earth's history; it reaches backward as well as forward! Consider, then, the history of mankind before Christ was born. Millions lived and died before the Savior came to the earth, lived here "having no hope and without God in the world," and therefore passed out into an eternity of woe.

Scripture says "Who (God) in times past (from the tower of Babel till after Pentecost) suffered all nations to walk in their own ways." (Acts 14:16)

Scripture says "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient." (Rom. 1:28)

Scripture says "You only have I known of all the families of the earth." (Amos 3:2)

But you point back to John 3:16 and say, "World means world." True, but we have shown that "the world" does not mean the whole human family. The fact is that "the world" is used in a general way.

When the brethren of Christ said "Show thyself to the world" (John 7:4), did they mean "Shew Thyself to all mankind"?

When the Pharisees said "Behold, the world is gone after Him" (John 12:19), did they mean that "all the human family" were flocking after Him?

When the apostle wrote, "Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Rom. 1:8), did he mean that the faith of the saints at Rome was the subject of conversation by every man, woman, and child on earth?

These, and other passages show that the term "the world" often has a relative rather than an absolute force.

Now …John 3:16 proper
Our Lord was speaking to Nicodemis, a man who believed that God's mercies were confined to his own nation. Christ there announced that God's love in giving His Son had a larger object in view, that it flowed beyond Palestine, reaching out to "regions beyond." In other words, this was Christ's announcement that God had a purpose of grace toward Gentiles as well as Jews. "God so loved the world," says God's love is international.

last...John 15

13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

In Christ…James

 

James and Dale,
Good solid and civil posts. Enjoyed reading them.

 

Romans 5:6-8 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

You see, God does love the sinner. He proved it, didn't He?

That is not limited atonement as defined by Calvin. But, if that is how you want to define it, we agree. (Limited to those who believe)

Calvin believed that those who believe were predestined to believe. That is where we part ways. I believe that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, not just for the "select few". I think that salvation is a free gift offered to every man. But, even a free gift can be rejected, and those who reject it will go to hell, not because God decided they would go to hell, but because they chose their own way.

Earlier you refered to me as a "4 pointer". I am not a "4 pointer" I am a Bible believer. The only part of "TULIP" I would agree with is the "P". I call it Eternal Security. So, if you wish, you may refer to me as a "1 pointer".

 

Hello Blammo,

 

Jarthur,
You said in above post you agree with the statement salvation is a free gift offered to every man. If in fact, you believe in regeneration before salvation, predestined by God to elect a fixed number before the foundation of the world, how can you say that the free gift statement is true? And by the way, your posts are very well written.

 

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

(us, as in we who ARE saved)

So, you limiting the power of Christ's blood to "those He chose to save", demonstrates greater love?

Yes, Christ's blood has the power to atone for the sins of the WHOLE world. But, only those who believe will receive the atonement.

I thought I already posted this verse:

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So, I quess your disagreement is not with me after all.

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

(In light of your question above, I would pay special attention to verse 20)

I place it where it belongs: Jesus is speaking to the apostles.

 

hello saturn,

There are many views within Calvinism, as I'm sure you know. This be so and yet some say we are tricked, brainwashed, and/or follow a man. If this be true, we would all believe one thing. Having said that, I hold to classic Calvinism. God sent His Son, and the message was proclaimed..."whosoever will may come". Who came to God? no one seeks after God...no one comes. The gift was freely offered to all, and still is today. Yet..no one comes.

Some hold that the new birth and regeneration are one and the same. I hold to regeneration comes 1st giving understanding ...the light comes on..then as one places their faith in God..the new birth is salvation. This can be seen in the flesh as well. Conception (life is given)...followed by the birth (born again into salvation).

Regeneration is the act of God awakening spiritual life within us, bringing us from spiritual death to spiritual life. On this definition, it is natural to understand that regeneration comes before saving faith. It is in fact this work of God that gives us the spiritual ability to respond to God in faith. However, when we say that it comes "before" saving faith, it is important to remember that they usually come so close together that it will ordinarily seem to us that they are happening at the same time.


In Christ..James

 

Yes..indeed. These were saved. Christ died for them.


I will address this other tonight or in the morning. I have had a lot of work dropped on me....which is good.

But..you should know that all Calvinist LOVE Romans.

Wait till we look at Romans 10...you will love this. I never saw this until about 2 years ago...and I have never read anyone else that shows this. I want to see what you think about what I seen in chapter 10. Stay with me. Your making good points. I hope to address them as best I can.


Press on till He comes.....

In Christ..James

 

Election

Our hope will always be in Jesus.

If the elect disown Christ, He disown them.

If the elect does not remain in Jesus Christ, they will be cut out.

We should not do as the pharisees and let these man made veil, veil us from the truth. Jesus can remove it, and only He can, so trust in Him.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

2 Timothy 2:
8Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, 9for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God's word is not chained. 10Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.


We can be chosen and elected and walk away just like the young rich ruler did.

Hebrews 3:

Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11]
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8 ]

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved ]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

The jews were cut out not because they were not chosen, but because of unbelief. So do not be arogant, but afraid, if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare you either.

Jews are the elect of God. Those who were cut out, was cut out for unbelief. We who are not Jews, was included with the believing Jews when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.