What or who is predestinated?

[Jarthur001]

Hello Bob,

I guess you did not read the full post again..did you?

This is the last line in my post...notice the word LOVE. So..again you are wrong saying I added it later...right?

Bob said..

It is what God says to do and you added "LOVE" after I confronted you with it.

when i really said...same page..listed above.

So yes..I agree. Whenever we try to do something in our own flesh, we sin. We sin when we don't even mean to sin. The only action that removes sin, is when we act in love. Love the Lord God with all your heart...and love others as yourself.


In Christ...James

Again, it is nonsense. Teach others to cease to do evil and learn to do good and you will be doing the work of the Lord.

Its all about attitude Bob. If I do it for the wrong reasons...I sin becuase of pride. If I do it in love this is the right way to respond.

Attitude is everything. right?


In Christ...James

 

[webdog]

I kind of expected this response.
No, I don't believe that you have to be a "calvinist" to be saved. However, I must seriously doubt the salvation of one who would deny the total work of God in salvation, and one who would deny God's sovereignty in salvation after seeing it so clearly in the Bible.

I can not know another mans heart. I would not judge your heart or any other mans specifically but in general, the more someone relies on their own goodness, the more I would doubt their true belief.

If you expected that response, why did you post the verse?

There is a hint of arrogance in your post. "What I believe is truth, if you don't believe like me I will have doubts about your salvation". News flash...what if you are wrong? Would this mean you are not saved? Because I don't believe in calvinism, this doesn't mean I don't believe salvation is 100% from God.

 

[webdog]

If you think that it is possible to teach people to do good without first being saved, then you are a humanist and no Christian.

*sigh* You really need to quit calling out the salvation of those you don't agree with.

I volunteered at a non profit agency. I saw PLENTY of lost people do GOOD...which is the opposite of bad, now, right? This is not humanism, but lost people who are trying to either work their way to Heaven, or want to help people. You imply that everyone who is lost are committing acts of bad and evil 24/7.

 

[Jarthur001]

Does a corpse need his mind hardened and his eyes blinded to the truth...yes or no, and don't play word games like "what does need mean?" You always answer a question with a question, and I'm tired of answering yours without a clear answer. If you dont' want to answer, or can't, just say so, that's fine. You know exactly where the story of Pharaoh is, so look it up at your leisure.

Yes..I did know what you mean this is why it is a stawman. You will not paste the verse for the meaning is clear. I wanted you to see on your own. This was your proof..no?

The Bible tells us clearly the reason Pharaoh's heart was harden..right? Is it to bind him from Salvation? Harden him to salvation? Man is blind to Gods salvation already. He is DEAD..so No this means nothing and is yet another stawman that falls down when you look at the Bible.. Does it have anything to do with salvation? no. Then to say hardening Pharaoh's heart is proof that man is dead in his sin nature is a stawman and pointless.




In Christ...James

 

[webdog]

Then to say hardening Pharaoh's heart is proof that man is dead in his sin nature is a stawman and pointless.

Ahhh...that's not what was said. Pharaoh, I assume, died lost. By your definition he was spiritually "dead"...corpse. A spiritually dead "corpse" wouldn't need his heart hardened to prevent him from allowing God's blessings on His people...he's a corpse, who can choose no good, who will only do what his lost nature allows, yada-yada-yada. Hardening his heart would be foolishness, then, as his only option was to not follow God's command in the first place. If God hardened this corpse's heart to prevent him from responding, it proves Pharaoh had the choice to respond to the words of God through Moses!
My point is in not showing hearts are hardened in salvation, but a corpse not needing his heart hardened in any spiritual situation or to respond to any command from God, being so simple as "let My people go", or "believe and you will be saved".

 

[webdog]

BTW, still waiting on those verses that prove a dead man cannot respond to Christ...

 

[Brother Bob]

Good works does not help...its the problum. Its very hard some some to see this

So yes..I agree. Whenever we try to do something in our own flesh, we sin. We sin when we don't even mean to sin. The only action that removes sin, is when we act in love. Love the Lord God with all your heart...and love others as yourself.

How could it be "good works" if it was not in Love?

As I see what you said you said "good works is the problem" and Good Works are of the Lord and in Love.

 

[Jarthur001]

One of the first things you see in the definition of didomi is "used in a very wide application...literally or figuratively." Wow, where else did we see figuratively before...oh yes, your literal, concrete definition of "dead". Seeing that this verse falls after 44, it should be pretty obvious that if one responds to the drawing of the Father, God will grant (didomi) the full truth of Jesus Christ to that person. You calvinists love to twist the converse and inverse of statements to prove your points. From the text we know that God the Father gives (didomi) those to Christ. It does not say those who don't come to Christ are not given (didomi) by the Father. On the contrary, verse 63 and 64 tie the individual's belief into the equation. Verse 63 nicely ties the "quickening" (zoopoieo) with believing in verse 64 ("But there are some of you who believe not"). Verse 65 then start out with the connection word "therefore" in explaining who comes to Christ, those who are drawn (verse 44) and respond (verse 64). Salvation is totally from God, and God makes this known to man. Man can refuse this drawing and think they can get to Heaven on their own merit, but verse 65 makes it clear salvation is totally from God and not man. Given the ability to believe or not in no way puts salvation on man's shoulders as calvinism teaches.[/QUOTE]

Welllllllllllll.....if one were to look at the text...we would see the CONTEXT of the tought starts anew in verse 61. You would also see the full statement is captured in verse 63-65. No?

61But Jesus, knowing within Himself that His disciples were complaining and protesting and grumbling about it, said to them: Is this a stumbling block and an offense to you? [Does this upset and displease and shock and scandalize you?]
62What then [will be your reaction] if you should see the Son of Man ascending to [the place] where He was before?
63It is the Spirit Who gives life [He is the Life-giver]; the flesh conveys no benefit whatever [there is no profit in it]. The words (truths) that I have been speaking to you are spirit and life.
64But [still] some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith. For Jesus knew from the first who did not believe and had no faith and who would betray Him and be false to Him.
65And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.


In Fact...verse 65 stands on its own in context as the sum of the subject from verses 63-65. No?


In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

Ahhh...that's not what was said. Pharaoh, I assume, died lost. By your definition he was spiritually "dead"...corpse. A spiritually dead "corpse" wouldn't need his heart hardened to prevent him from allowing God's blessings on His people...he's a corpse, who can choose no good, who will only do what his lost nature allows, yada-yada-yada. Hardening his heart would be foolishness, then, as his only option was to not follow God's command in the first place. If God hardened this corpse's heart to prevent him from responding, it proves Pharaoh had the choice to respond to the words of God through Moses!

1st...great debate webdog. Other then a few sidelines..you for one have stayed focus. It has been fun. Other then the hate statements..and this did not come from you. Thanks..

Now above...

Hardening his heart would be foolishness
In no way. God uses sinners to bring glory to Him...even when they sin. Moses sinned by hit the rock 2 times...yet this is a great picture that Christ onl dies once...and brings glory to God.

Dead in sins...means man will never choose GOD on his own (can not respond). He can and does choose to sin. Yes...he loves sin. He chooses sin freely. God knows this, and at times uses it to bring glory to his name. The jews needed to back to their land....God used the hate of Hitler to have the Jews join together as a cause to take their nation back. God did not make Hitler sin. Hitler had hate in his heart..and God used this hate..and other things to place him in power. A lot of pain..but in the end Gods name was lifted.

13Let no one say when he is tempted, I am tempted from God; for God is incapable of being tempted by [what is] evil and He Himself tempts no one.

14But every person is tempted when he is drawn away, enticed and baited by his own evil desire (lust, passions).

Pharaoh was used by God. Pharaoh in his own lust..followed his own will in sins...yet it was God that placed the lust in front of him. Did God push with his hand? No. God knew Pharaoh sin nature, used it to bring glory to Him.

Pharaoh was dead in sins and could never respnd to God unless God let him. Yet he harden his heart in the pride of power...to control Pharaoh in order to bring glory to Him.

What a great God we have.


This maybe one of my last post today...I need to do some work.

Your verses on sin nature...I'll try to get them next.

Press on till He comes....

In Christ..James

 

[Jarthur001]

How could it be "good works" if it was not in Love?

As I see what you said you said "good works is the problem" and Good Works are of the Lord and in Love.

Never mind Bob. To much to cover and another subject. Maybe someone else would take it up with you.

peace BB..

In Christ..James

 

[Brother Bob]

Just pointing out your nonsense!

 

[webdog]

1st...great debate webdog. Other then a few sidelines..you for one have stayed focus. It has been fun. Other then the hate statements..and this did not come from you. Thanks..

Now above...

Hardening his heart would be foolishness
In no way. God uses sinners to bring glory to Him...even when they sin. Moses sinned by hit the rock 2 times...yet this is a great picture that Christ onl dies once...and brings glory to God.

Dead in sins...means man will never choose GOD on his own (can not respond). He can and does choose to sin. Yes...he loves sin. He chooses sin freely. God knows this, and at times uses it to bring glory to his name. The jews needed to back to their land....God used the hate of Hitler to have the Jews join together as a cause to take their nation back. God did not make Hitler sin. Hitler had hate in his heart..and God used this hate..and other things to place him in power. A lot of pain..but in the end Gods name was lifted.



Pharaoh was used by God. Pharaoh in his own lust..followed his own will in sins...yet it was God that placed the lust in front of him. Did God push with his hand? No. God knew Pharaoh sin nature, used it to bring glory to Him.

Pharaoh was dead in sins and could never respnd to God unless God let him. Yet he harden his heart in the pride of power...to control Pharaoh in order to bring glory to Him.

What a great God we have.


This maybe one of my last post today...I need to do some work.

Your verses on sin nature...I'll try to get them next.

Press on till He comes....

In Christ..James

I'm trying to clarify the state of Pharaoh, and those spiritually dead...was he dead, or not? The argument has been presented that spiritually dead people cannot respond to God, and only choose sin. Would it have been sin for Pharaoh to let Gods' people go? The Bible tells us that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, which I take as he had the option of letting God's people go...which means in a spiritually "corpsed" state, he could respond to God. God put the final nail in the coffin, and hardened Pharaoh's heart ensuring this (this is another topic, but I believe God hardened his heart by blessing the Israelites).

Another example is 2 Cor. 4:4 which shows spiritually dead men (unbelievers) who are blinded from hearing the truth...why?...to keep them from seeing the light of the Gospel! A corpse cannot see anything, as has been argued, and if they are indeed corpses, satan would be thrilled, and would never need to blind these corpses.
2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[Brother Bob]

No hate statements from me I only attacked the doctrine. NO ad homenium at all, at least from me.

 

[saturneptune]

Webdog,
Did you say a "hint of arrogance" in Arthur's posts. Now that is the understatement of the year. Arthur, it seems to me that everyone you talk to has the same reaction. Webdog and I disagree on Calvinism. We are in full agreement on your motives. And dont forget your J.

 

[saturneptune]

To the Dale Arthur Team,
Having read all the posts from you two that ramble on and on, there is no doubt in my mind that I have a much more clear image of the sovreignty of God than you two put together, and I am just a layman.

For either or both of you to take Brother Bob's words about feeding the poor, helping the sick and twist it in your own twisted minds into a works salvation is about as low as a person can get. You two are a class act.

 

[Jarthur001]

No hate statements from me I only attacked the doctrine. NO ad homenium at all, at least from me.

I would have to agree Bob. We both just had a good exchange using STRONG words with no personal slams. You have shown that one can be BOLD with a statement without going after the person.


Thanks..

In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

Webdog,
Did you say a "hint of arrogance" in Arthur's posts. Now that is the understatement of the year. Arthur, it seems to me that everyone you talk to has the same reaction. Webdog and I disagree on Calvinism. We are in full agreement on your motives. And dont forget your J.

OK..

Now back to the subject. I think this statement below kinda speaks of mans sin nature..what do you think?

"Myryzxh ynpl Mynynph wkylvt la"

After you answer, you can go back to slamming someone.

One more thing......maybe you better read webdogs post again. :smilewinkgrin:



In Christ.. James

 

[Brother Bob]

Give not that which is holy to the dogs

Oh, but He did because of her faith, also seems she might of did a little works also.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Saturn..

You said..

Having read all the posts from you two that ramble on and on, there is no doubt in my mind that I have a much more clear image of the sovreignty of God than you two put together, and I am just a layman.

To the Dale Arthur Team,

You two are a class act.

Thanks..but I'm sure Dale would agree...No need to give Dale and I Glory. Give all the glory to God. It is His word we preach.


In Christ..James

 

[Jarthur001]

Give not that which is holy to the dogs

Oh, but He did because of her faith, also seems she might of did a little works also.

You are right Bob...it has nothing to do with it.


Nor does many other post. So will you join with me and ask your buddy to keep the personals down and stay on subject? Can you stand up to him? Lets see what your made of Bob. You no longer attack...do you? Can you talk you "Home boy" into keeping it down?


Thanks...